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Sponsored by the 

Old West Regional Commission 

Bismarck, N.D. 

October 24-26, 1977 

of proceedings 




3 0864 1004 3941 6 


October 24 - 26, 1977 

Kirkwood Motor Inn 
Bismarck, North Dakota 



Preliminary Session 1 

Greet i ngs 2 

Honorable Arthur A. Link 

Governor of North Dakota 
Greetings (Telegriun) 4 

Honorable Quentln N. Burdick 

U. S. Senator 

State of North Dakota 
Hconomic Briefing 5 

Mrs. Jeannette Studer 

Economist, Old West Regional Coimnission 


Workshop Session 1 

Theme One: Structuring An Ixonoraic Development Strategy 

Toward Places 2 

Theme Two: Creating Employment Opportunities for Individuals .. 57 

Theme Three: Addressing The Fiscal Capacity And Service 

Delivery Problems Of Government 100 

Theme Four: Recognizing The Impact Of The Public Sector On 

The Geographic Distribution Of Economic Activity 

And Population 135 

Theme Five: Assessing The Inadequacies Of Government 

Structure And Processes 171 

Theme Six: linvironmental Quality And Resource Constraints: 

Anticipating Change And Reconciling Conflicts 200 


Summary Session 


I'art ic i pants 




Honorable Arthur A. Link 
Governor of North Dakota 

Greetings (Telegram) 

Honorable Quentin N. Burdick 

U. S. Senator 

State of North Dakota 

Economic Briefing 

Mrs. Jeannette Studer 

Economist, Old West Regional Commission 

Tuesday, October 25, 1977 

Greet Lngs to Old West Conference on Balanced Growth 

Honorable Arthur A. Link 

Governor of North Dakota 

Greetings, friends. On behalf of the Old West Regional Commission and the 
State of North Dakota, I am pleased to welcome you to our state's capital 
city. For those of you from South Dakota, Nebraska, Montana and Wyoming 
— welcome to North Dakota. 

You are going to be talking about balanced growth for the next day-and-a- 
half. While you are in North Dakota, I hope you will plan to balance out 
your stay by visiting some of the fine attractions our state has to offer, 
such as the International Peace Garden, the Red River Valley, and the 
Badlands at Theodore Roosevelt National Park near Medora. I am not saying 
that after this session you will need a rest; I am simply inviting you to 
relax in beautiful North Dakota! If you cannot balance work and pleasure 
on this trip, we invite you to come back again. 

I hope you will have a most productive session. You will be addressing a 
number of vital topics in which each of our states has a common interest. 

Only a month ago, I greeted a group of legislators from our same five 
states. I am pleased to see this cooperative approach expanding. 

Because I believe there is much to be accomplished by cooperative action 
on the part of our states, 1 believe the Old West Regional Commission is 
an important umbrella group. The Old West Regional Commission has been 
an effective organization which maximizes the influence of our state by 
cooperative action. However, I believe the Commission can be even more 

We are working together on a number of important issues, many of which we 
will touch on in relation to the six themes we are discussing today. We 
are working together on energy issues in an effort to preserve the quality 
of our environment. I think sometimes we are more innovative and possibly 
braver out here in the Midwest and I would urge that we harness these 
progressive feelings and push for expanded wind and solar energy utili- 
zation and development. 

The main goal of the regional economic plan developed by the Old West 
Commission is to improve the general quality of human existence in our 
region. In keeping with this, I believe we must place an even greater 
emphasis in human resources areas -- programs that involve people directly. 
Wc are working in some of these areas now, such as education, as we work 
to develop a veterinary medicine school; and in the area of transportation 
as we review possibilities for a regional national airport. 

In the area of economic development, I believe our states could do more 
in the area of cooperative marketing, both domestic and overseas. I 

believe we could expand our efforts in the area of tourism. All of our 
states do now or have at one time participated in a five-state tourist 
promotion organization called the Old West Trail. The Old West Trail 
continues to be a very successful cooperative tourism marketing group. 

I will not repeat the conference themes which you will be addressing be- 
cause they are printed in your programs and are familiar to you. However, 
I want to lift up a list of topics which have a relationship to these 
themes and which may be addressed as you deal with them: 

The agricultural economic basis of our region and the responsibility 
of feeding our nation and the world, in the face of rampant hunger; 

The increasing distance between the haves and have-nots of our region, 
nation and the world; 

- The balance between rural and urban population and the possibility of 
a new rural settlement program; 

- The using up of resources by citizens who can afford such utilization 
in a monetary way, without noting the environmental or human cost. 

I hope that in the discussion of the conference themes, some of the 
specific goals of the Old West Regional Commission's economic plan can be 
incorporated. These goals are: 

- To increase the per capita personal incomes of people in the region 
with a special emphasis on American Indian peoples. Hopefully, this 
goal will be implemented in such a way as to be concerned with all 
minorities, including the economic base of women; 

- To plan cooperatively so as to prevent adverse impact from occurring 
in the region as a result of rapid energy-related development; 

- To achieve and maintain high environmental quality standards for air 
and water in our region; 

- To improve health services, especially in rural areas; and 

To provide for increased citizen participation in the governmental 
decision-making process and to provide a forum for discussing regional 

I hope some unique and even, yes, some radical ideas come out of this 
session. What we do here will be a preface to The White House Conference 
on Balanced National Growth and Economic Development scheduled in Washington 
next year. 

I believe we in the Old West are just maverick enough to come up with some 
new and unusual constructive ideas to forward to our nation's capital. 

Thank you. 

Tuesday, October 25, 1977 

Greetings to Old West Conference on Balanced Growth fTelegram) 

lloiiornblf QniMilin N. hiirdifk 

U. S. Senator 

State of North Dakota 

As you know, the Congress appears to be in the last important hours of this 
session. While I can't be with you, I wish to extend greetings to members 
of this Old West Conference and say welcome to the Peace Garden State to 
those of you from neighboring states. 

Your conference, sponsored by the Old West Regional Commission and Governors 
of the five states, is an important building block to The White House Con- 
ference on Balanced National Growth and Economic Development to be held in 
Washington early next year. It is important that the problems of, and pro- 
posals from, the Old West area be part of the agenda of this national con- 

As you know, our area is undergoing significant structural changes. Energy 
development will lead to growth problems that require attention now. Yet, 
there is no federal policy for energy-related growth. What should that 
policy be? 

We have seen a punishing drought and falling farm prices. In a more profound 
way, long-term changes continue to go on with our rural economy. In many 
ways the family farm is a symbol of America's agrarian heritage, but the 
decline of the family farm represents more than a loss of a cherished symbol. 
It represents a decline of population and opportunity in our rural areas, an 
economic decline in our rural economies, and it results in a disinvestment 
of human resources. For too many years, we have failed to develop an ade- 
quate and realistic national rural development policy. What should that 
policy be? 

Finally, we are still uncertain as to how much federal investment should be 
made in economic development. Our economic development programs date back 
to the early sixities. Wc have been using Scotch tape and baling wire to 
keep them going, with modest budgets and often without support from The 
White House. We need to rethink our policies and programs based on today's 
needs. As chairman of the Subcommittee on Regional and Community Develop- 
ment, that authorizes the EDA and Title V Commission programs, and a member 
of the Appropriations Committee, that provides funds for these and other 
economic development programs, I shall be interested in your recommendations. 
I hope your deliberations lead to concrete proposals. 

Quentin Burdick 

I - 4 

Tuesday, October 25, 1977 

Economic Briefing - Old West Conference on Balanced Growth 

Mrs. Jeannette Studer 

Economist, Old West Regional Commission 

I would like to give you a brief overview of the Old West Region to, first 
of all, present a historical perspective of what has been happening to the 
economy of the area; and, second, point out some of the commonalities and 
differences existing in the region. I am sure all of you are familiar with 
the economies and problems of your state, but in order to have a useful 
regional growth conference, all of the participants need to have some per- 
spective on the problems and concerns of their neighbors. 

(1. MAP OF REGION) The Old West Region consists of the states of Montana, 
Wyoming, North Dakota, South Dakota and Nebraska. The land area contained 
in the region is almost 465 thousand square miles, over 13% of the total 
Nation's land area, but the region contains less than 2% of the Nation's 
population. This map shows the major cities in the region -- the largest 
population concentration is the Omaha, Nebraska, area located at the very 
southeastern edge of the region. Other population concentrations in 
Fargo-Moorhead and Sioux Falls also sit on the edge of the region. In 
fact, there are no centralized metropolitan or urban areas for focusing, 
linking or generating economic activities unique to the region. Geogra- 
phically, the region is encircled by centers of urban- industrialized growth. 
(2. MAP OF REGION WITH CITIES) Minneapolis, Kansas City, Denver, Salt Lake 
City and Spokane are all relatively near, but outside the region, providing 
markets for the region's goods and capital. 

(3. MAP OF AIR ROUTES) Looking at the transportation patterns of the 
region further emphasizes this point. This map shows the inter-regional 
air routes. Transportation access for the region is relatively good, but 
again the focus is on major cities outside the region. One major problem 
currently confronting the region is the lack of direct air routes between 
many cities in the region. There are no direct air routes connecting 
Billings, Great Falls or Bismarck to Omaha or Lincoln, Nebraska, or the 
Sioux Falls area. In fact, to air-travel from Billings to Rapid City, 
which is a relatively short geographic distance, requires flying to Denver 
and back up. I am sure many of you are keenly aware of this problem after 
trying to get to Bismarck for this meeting. 

(4. MAP OF RAIL ROUTES) This map shows the rail routes for the region. 
Again, the transportation systems are quite good in terms of the region's 
having good rail access, but, as you Hill note, all of the main lines 
except two run east-west to take the agriculture and raw mineral ores to 
the eastern markets. There are no north-south lines linking the three 
eastern states of North Dakota, South Dakota and Nebraska. 

(5. MAP OF HIGHWAYS) The same is true for the major interstates -- they 
have an east -west orientation. The darker lines are the main interstates. 

(6. COMPOSITE MAP Ol- TRANSPORTATION ROUTES) This is a composite map of the 
transportation routes. 

Another aspect of the Old West Region, which has a great bearing on its 
development and on this conference, is the land-ownership pattern. 
(7. MAP OF FEDERAL LAND) This map shows the lands under federal adminis- 
tration of some type. Anything shaded or outlined is land under federal 
administration -- these include national parks, grasslands, Indian reser- 
vations, etc. Although public lands account for less than one-third of 
the total regional area, as you can easily see, the amount per state 
varies widely. Over 55% of Wyoming is under public administration while 
Nebraska has only 5.7% in public lands. 

(8. CHART, ECONOMIC/DEMOGRAPHIC INDICATORS) Now, look at a few historical, 
economic and demographic indicators for the region. The first part of this 
chart shows per capita income of the region as a percent of the Nation; the 
second column, right, shows the variance of the states within the region. 
Our two end-points of 1950 and 1974 are really somewhat atypical years 
because these were years of high agricultural income. In the second column, 
on the right, in 1950 South Dakota had the low of 83% -- Wyoming, the high 
of 112%. The Dakotas have been fairly consistently low; Wyoming, high. 
The second series shows earnings per worker. As we all know, the region is 
much more rural than the Nation. The statistics on migration are interes- 
ting in that prior to 1970, the region had a long and consistent history 
of out-migration. Since 1970, this trend has reversed itself to the point 
that we show a noticeable net in-migration. The gross figures for 1965-1970 
show the high mobility of the region's population, with a total of 875,000 
people moving some place in those five years. 

(9. CHART, SECTOR EARNINGS OWR) Now, let's take a look at the economic 
structure of the region. This chart shows the earnings contributed by each 
sector as a percent of total earnings for the entire region in 1974. The 
bottom chart is the Nation. Of course, the agricultural sector is a much 
stronger earnings sector in the region than the Nation, and is also the 
largest earnings sector for the region. Mining is also considerably larger, 
while manufacturing contributes much less in the region. The other sectors 
are fairly similar. 

(10. CHART, SECTOR EMPLOYMENT OWR) This chart showing sector employment 
as a percent of total employment for the region again demonstrates the 
dominance of agriculture with wholesale and retail trade taking the highest 
percent of jobs. The difference between looking at earnings and employ- 
ment is that some sectors are typically high employers, but pay low wages 
-- wholesale and retail trade is a case in point. 

Now, let's turn to sectors that provide the main economic base for the 
region -- agriculture, mining, and manufacturing. Tourism is also an 
economic base for many areas of the region, but data for tourism are very 
difficult to separate out from other trade and service data. 

(11. CHART, AGRICULTURE) This chart shows agriculture earnings for each 

of the states for selected years since 1950. I think the important thing 
to note here is the volatility of agriculture earnings. Looking at any one 
of the states, you see the earnings rise and fall over this 25-year period. 
Probably most dramatic is the drop from 1973 to 1974. In the case of 
Nebraska, it was a drop of over $500 million. 1973 was, of course, the 
year of high grain prices. 

Food processing for the region has a natural linkage to agriculture be- 
cause of the availability of large quantitities of unprocessed agriculture 
products in the region. Statistics for the region indicate that despite 
absolute production increases in every major commodity at a rate exceeding 
40 percent from 1959 to 1969, there was only a 13% growth in absolute earn- 
ings in food processing over the same period. The above factors indicate 
that, while there is a growth trend in the region for food processing, this 
trend is not keeping up with growth in agricultural production. Thus, it 
is probable that the region is not obtaining "its share" of growth from 
the natural linkage between agriculture and food processing. This would 
indicate that areas outside the region are processing more and more of the 
region's agricultural production, and potential exists for the region to 
capture a greater share of the food processing activities related to its 
own production of unprocessed food products. In addition, the region has 
a relatively clean environment; a mobile and highly educated labor force; 
substantial land resources and numerous natural attractions leading to 
the potential for expanded tourism. 

(12. CHART, MINING) Mining includes the extractive production of oil and 
natural gas, as well as coal, copper, gold and uranium. As you will note, 
earnings in this sector have steadily increased. This is reflective of 
price increases as well as increases in mining activity. 

(13. CHART, MANUFACTURING) Manufacturing has been a growing sector in all 
of the Old West states. Manufacturing includes the processing of mineral 
ores and the refining of petroleum products as well as other types. Nebraska 
is by far the most dominant state in this area. 

(14. CHART, REAL EARNINGS BY SECTOR) Looking at our service sectors over 
the same 25-year period shows that services, federal government and state 
and local governments have all about tripled. This trend is reflected in 
each of the states as well as the Nation. 

As far as the future of the region is concerned, let us look at some of 
the assets or potentials and some of the problems. 

(15. CHART, ASSETS) The major economic growth opportunities lie in the 
areas of mining and energy production, selected processing and manufac- 
turing and tourism. 

(16. CHART, COAL RESERVES) The fact that the region has substantial coal, 
petroleum, natural gas and uranium reserves is undisputable. All of these 
fuels have shown substantial increases since 1950. In particular, coal 
reserves are quite large in the region. This map shows the coal reserves. 

Dark portions are lignite; light portions are bituminous and sub-bituminous. 
Development of these reserves is a potential of significant proportions, but 
it also has many associated problems; and the potentials are quite localized, 
compared to agriculture. Mining brings the jobs and earnings to the natural 
deposits, and these are mainly located in southwest and northeast Wyoming, 
southeast Montana and west North Dakota. 

(17. CHART, PROBLEMS) In looking at the problems of the region, we will 
look at those over which we have little control in the next 10 years and 
those that we have some contol over. There are factors inherent in the 
region's makeup which tend to restrict some of the potentials outlined 
earlier. Moreover, the nature of these restrictive characteristics are 
such that they cannot be controlled significantly during the next 10 years. 
The population of the region is small in size and is not concentrated. The 
sparseness of the population restricts both the size and location of in- 
ternal markets. The lack of urban areas often restricts the size of new 
facilities which current or potential employers can build because work 
force size limitations could make it difficult to recruit sufficient 
numbers of workers . 

Most of the major market areas of the United States are substantial dis- 
tances from any parts of the region, and the market within the region itself 
is limited. Thus, manufacturing of products with relatively high trans- 
portation costs is difficult for manufacturers located within the region, 
and these manufacturers tend to locate near major markets. As we noted 
earlier, the region is outwardly focused toward the major cities that sur- 
round it. 

The region has few railroad, highway, or air transportation focal points 
where many routes converge for either intra- or inter-modal transfer, 
for example, railroad to truck. The region does have several locations 
where transportation routes converge, but few (perhaps only Omaha) of these 
locations are comparable to Denver, Minneapolis, Salt Lake City, or Kansas 
City which are all located on the region's perimeter. As a result, manu- 
facturing and distribution linkages to current economic activity is diffi- 
cult to achieve. For example, food processing of some products produced 
within the region can be more easily achieved at locations outside the region 
than within because of the transportation network. 

There have been dramatic changes in grain, uranium, and copper prices dur- 
ing the past few years. These prices are dependent on weather, other ])ro- 
duction factors and world demands. These factors are not controllable 
from year-to-year and contribute to substantial planning and economic 
uncertainty within the region. Because of the importance of grain produc- 
tion to the region's economy, grain price instabilities have a major in- 
fluence on the entire region's economic well-being. Price instabilities 
are also common in the mining sector (e. g., copper and uranium). Such 
fluctuations could also occur in the future prices of the region's coal 
and crude oil. 

IVhile the preceding factors cannot be substantially controlled over the 

immediate future, there are some problem areas which are partially control- 
lable over the next 10 years. 

(18. CHART, PROBLEMS) Low job earnings in the region area major problem. 
Job earnings are subject to some improvement given the resource potential 
of the region. 

Portions of the region are water short despite the fact that the gross 
water resources available to the region appear adequate. The difficulty 
is with redistribution of water from water- abundant areas to water-defici- 
ent areas and with the competition for existing water supplies among alter- 
native uses and areas. Other than the technical and investment requirements 
to achieve a revised distribution system, legal and other institutional 
uncertainties contribute to the problem of achieving any goals associated 
with providing additional water to water-deficient areas. 

The technically and industrially oriented vocational schools are few in 
number, and on the average, relatively small and separated by great dis- 
tances. Thus, it is somewhat difficult for a trainee to achieve the specific 
skill training associated with the high growth industries at an occupational 
training facility near home. The migration patterns, however, indicate rel- 
atively high mobility on the part of the work force and a willingness of 
workers to move to other locations with job opportunities. 

IVhile there are high per capita public investments in the region which can 
accommodate general growth, the public investment problem at the local 
level can be a serious problem for high growth areas. Growth from a low 
population base (the boom-town phenomenon) severely strains local govern- 
ments because of the lag in receiving tax revenues to support immediate 
public investment problems. The problem is less acute over time as the 
tax base increases, but the "start-up" investment requirement is severe 
for small, high-growth communities. 

Other problems include lack of physicians and health facilities in rural 
areas; a crucial housing problem in rapidly growing areas; the lack of 
capital for economic expansion; and the continuing problem of non-point 
sources of pollution, mainly from agriculture. 

(19. CHART, REGIONAL PROJECTIONS) Economic projections for the region to 
1985 show employment and population increasing at a greater rate than 
during the 1960 's with net in-migration. However, the per capita income 
picture for the region does not improve much relative to the Nation's 
remaining at an average of 92% with six substate areas below 90% of the 
national per capita income level. 

All of which brings us to the purpose of a regional economic plan, prepared 
by the Old West Regional Commission, which is to analyze the potentials 
and problems of the area, set forth attainable goals to increase the well- 
being of the region, and devise strategies for public investment to attain 
these goals. 

(20. CHART, GOALS) The goals set forth in the regional plan of the Old 
West Regional Conunission are the six goals shown in the chart. 

First, to increase per capita incomes in all substate areas to at least 
90% of the Nation. 

Second, to increase per capita incomes among American Indian people by 
$350 above the expected 1985 level. Although the region as a whole does 
not have serious unemployment or poverty problems, the American Indians 
reflect some of the greatest economic problems, with average unemployment 
conservatively estimated at 19% with some reservations as high as 40% unem- 
ployment; and per capita income of $1000, or one-fourth of the national 
average, and over 46% classified below the poverty line. 

Third, to prevent serious potential dislocations or disruptions in the 
regional economy as a result of rapid energy-related developments. 

Fourth, to achieve environmental quality implied in public pollution laws 
and maintain the high quality areas. 

Fifth, to improve health services, especially in rural areas. 

Sixth, to provide increased citizen participation in the governmental 
decision-making process and to provide a forum for discussing regional 

And sixth is what this conference hopes to achieve. 

In order to get to the main purpose of this conference, this presentation 
has only been able to touch upon a few of the assets and problems of the 
region without being able to take a look at the differing economies of the 
many substate areas. I hope that all of you will have adequate opportunity 
to discuss the concerns of your area with other participants in the con- 

Thank you. 


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CHART #18 

CHART #19 

CHART #20 







Structuring An Economic Development 

Strategy Toward Places 2 

Creating Employment Opportunities for Individuals 57 

Addressing The Fiscal Capacity And Service 

Delivery Problems Of Government 100 

Recognizing The Impact Of The Public Sector 

On The Geographic Distribution Of Economic 

Activity And Popu at ion 135 

Assessing The Inadequacies Of Government 

Structure And Processes 171 

Environmental Quality And Resource Constraints: 
Anticipating Change And Reconciling Conflicts 200 




Leaders : 

Sam Jensen 

Omaha attorney and chairman of the 
Nebraska State Commission for Post 
Secondary Education 

Ted Muenster 

Vice President for development 

University of South Dakota 


MR. JENSEN: My name is Sam Jensen. I'm from Omaha. Assisting me in this 
program this morning is somebody who probably knows much more about the 
program in that he's an alternate on the Old West Commission, Ted Muenster, 
who is with the University of South Dakota. Even more important about Ted, 
he's an alumnus of the University of Nebraska which makes him qualified for 
about anything, at least in my opinion. 

Let's see. Can we please sit down? Everything will be all right. Now, 
would you check your table to make certain you have some blue cards and some 
notepaper? I'm going to make some remarks about our four topics that we will 
be discussing, and it would be helpful if you take some notes about them be- 
cause, as a matter of fact, they are all interrelated. Check your table to 
make sure you have some blue cards, notepaper and pencils, and we will begin. 

Our main topic for discussion here -- Theme No. 1 -- has to do basically 
with the places and locations with reference to development and growth. I 
hope that all of you have read the theme outline. It's in the outline mater- 
ials. No. 1, and also I hope you had an opportunity to look at the regional 
economic plan. I will be referring to this book as well as to the outline 
book as we outline our topics of conversation this morning. 

We are going to break down our main topic into four discussion groups. As I 
said, they are related one to the other. Our first topic which we have on 
the board is: What are the variables with reference to place and location 
affecting growth and development of the Old West Region? 

The other topic is: What should we do to promote opportunities and eliminate 
barriers as such policies relate to place and location? Basically, what we 
are saying is, once we develop the answers to this question, what do we do 
with reference to place and location to take care of the problems? Eliminate 
the barriers and proceed? 

Topics three and four are probably more detailed and this is related in some 
of the materials you received. Topic three: Do we go to the worst first, 
or do we go to the best first? In other words, where do we concentrate our 
efforts in this kind of an approach to places and locations? 

And then the fourth. It probably is the most specific question that we will 
address, and that is: Do we bring people to opportunities or opportunities 
to people? 

Let me go over these in a little more detail. What are the problems of 
growth, nongrowth, unemployment, economic, environmental, industrial and 
agricultural development or lack of development which affect and differ from 
place to place throughout the region? In other words, what are these situ- 
ations? Now, to some extent we are talking about a problem or an approach 
which is nonregional, but we are hoping that we can identify some of the 
differences as they affect place and location and different problems, and 
then perhaps establish some priorities, so this is the main result of talking 
about place and location in our meeting this morning. 


In identifying these areas and these opportunities and these problems, 
what we want you to do is to take one step backward and put on your regional 
thinking hat and try to identify the best opportunities and the most serious 
problems. As you have probably indicated in our Theme No. 3, perhaps we may 
have to assume that we have limited resources. We may have to look at those 
areas where we can do the best good in a reasonable period of time. 

We would call your attention to the fact that the Commission has identified 
the regional goals which you have seen in the slide presentation this morn- 
ing. You also find them on page 31 of the blue regional plan. To some 
extent, then, while it would be proper for us to identify certain things as 
trying to increase per capita income, particularly among the native American 
population, and talk of such areas as this, by adaptation of these programs 
into the regional plan, we have said that these are regional concerns. 

It may be in your discussion this morning you will find they are also con- 
cerns of place and location, but it might be well to look at other areas in 
addition to some of these which are identified on page 31 of the regional 
economic plan. I don't want to reinforce them, but we don't want to rein- 
vent the wheel. So let's be cognizant of those goals which are set out in 
the regional plan. Among other things, we must look into the improvement 
of income of the native American and, on our program, the improvement of 
water resources and the other problems of place and location. We understand 
that. In other words, we are talking about communities of five thousand 
and under. Maybe that is a place and location, but it may repeat itself 
throughout the area, so we are not talking about one place and one location. 
We would be talking about all areas affected by private energy development, 
as an example. So you are not limited in considering place and location to 
a particular place, but it may well be a group of places and locations that 
we are talking about. 

Having identified our first topic, now we move. Our second topic, which is 
going to be basically what do we do to eliminate barriers to growth, we're 
going to have to build upon the answers to this first question and see what 
we do to make an approach. What kind of resources do we apply to promote 
the opportunities and eliminate the barriers, and how do we do this? Do we 
do this as a region, government, private industry, private enterprise, state 
and local government, or some combination? How do we increase the opportuni- 
ties and eliminate the barriers? That's our second area of discussion. 

Now, our third topic becomes a little bit more limited. Assuming that we 
have limited resources, we have limited money, limited people, limited time, 
should the efforts of the various governments in the private sector be direc- 
ted to the opportunity or problem which can be solved on a near permanent 
basis with a relatively small amount of money, time and people; or should we 
try to concentrate on the real problem areas so we raise from below a stan- 
dard for area or place or location? The idea is that if you have a good 
thing going, make it better and make it more solid, and this makes you look 
better on paper; but are you then forgetting about some of the social problems 
and needs which keep the region down because, in effect, they are substantial 
problems and are always identified as substantial problems holding us back. 


We are going to ask you to identify the areas where there should be the 
most opportunity and try to look at these relative to topics 1 and 2. In 
other words, where in topics 1 and 2 are the opportunities and where are 
the real problems that are holding us back? I would think if there's 
one thing that we should address objectively, and I guess I'm saying in a 
standback, put on your regional thinking cap sort of concept. Consider 
what we do have to work with. Should we perhaps look at the areas where 
we can do the most good in the shortest period of time, at least for some 
of the programs, not all the programs? It may be that we should have a 
concurrent attack, if we have the resources to do it -- and, of coutse, 
that is the question we have to address. 

The fairly narrow question is No. 4, which is: Should we move people to 
opportunities or the opportunities to the people? I guess this depends 
on the nature of the problem or the opportunity. Do we try to put factories 
and industrial concentration on the reservation to bring opportunities to 
native Americans? Do we try to do something with the minorities in the 
Omaha area, or do we find that we have a good thing going with perhaps 
Alliance in Nebraska where we increase growth? And do we have the federal 
government increase housing and vocational training in that area, by 
doing so, bringing people there, providing adjustment, and providing trans- 
portation reimbursement? This sort of thing. 

These are the four topics that we are going to discuss. Now, let me ask 
you right now if you have any questions about any definition or anything 
I have talked about. 

FROM THE FLOOR: I have two questions. One is -- it said in your promo- 
tional material for the conference that one of the purposes was to update 
the regional plan. All right. Does that mean that the people who are here 
are being asked to make any kind of suggestions for amendments to the 
regional plan, or is that regional plan just going to be passed through 
and then sent on as is? What does that first part mean that you are going 
to update the regional plan? 

MR. JENSEN: Ted may have a comment on this. As I understand it, all of 
the input is going to be recorded, and I'm going to explain how we use the 
cards. But if you are asking if we are going to have some sort of situ- 
ation where we are all going to vote on amending the plan, that is not 
contemplated. All the input and suggestions and recommendations will 
be brought to the Commission members and to the staff. As I understand 
it, there may be some changes or updating of the plan. But we are not 
going to consider one of the six goals of the plan and vote to amend it 
or change it. 

FROM THE FLOOR: So what we can do here is, if we have any ideas that 
would result in changing the regional economic development plan, we are 
invited to submit them for consideration? 


FROM THE FLOOR: So that the plan might be different as a consequence of 


this meeting? 


FROM THE FLOOR: We are not frozen to dealing with the plan as it is? 

MR. JENSEN: We are not frozen. And anybody who wants to take one of 
these blue cards and write suggestions on it and look at, say. No. 3 of 
the goals of the regional economic plan and write,"! think this should be 
changed," just do that, and that will be considered as part of the input 
of this particular program. 

FROM THE FLOOR: Secondly, before we begin discussing specifics, would it 
be possible for us to take some time and consider criteria for the work 
that we are doing? What kind of criteria we would want our decisions to 

MR. JENSEN: I guess we can't do it in this format. We have to accept 
to some extent the discussion materials and the regional plan as it exists; 
and trying to determine criteria probably is not going to work in the for- 
mat we have adopted for this proceeding. 

FRCM THE FLOOR: But in your promotional material you have said that 
these topics are suggested only. They do not preclude the discussion of 
other topics. And, really, I think it would be advisable for us to con- 
sider some criteria for a regional plan. 

MR. JENSEN: I guess you are beyond my authority. 

MR. MUENSTER: And I think you are expanding the mechanics beyond anything 
that we have time for here. Everything is going to be taken down here 
verbatim by the recorder, and Billy Carter himself will read it. 

FROM THE FLOOR: Oh, marvelous. 

MR. MUENSTER: I think if we get hung up on a lot of procedural things, 
we are going to be here until winter which in Bismarck is fairly soon. 

MR. JENSEN: We are going to proceed. We are going to try to keep on 
schedule, although we are a little bit behind. We are going to use what's 
called the Phillips 66 technique as modified and gurued by Jerry Hansen of 
Billings. And Jerry is the handsome fellow in the back observing my per- 
formance and grading me as I move along. 

What I would like to have you do right now is take about one-half minute, 
because we had to move people around. Would you take your group at your 
table and introduce yourselves and explain something about your background. 
Then I'm going to get back to you, but let's take that time right now and 
introduce yourselves at the table. 


Let me suggest to you an extra step in our procedure. That is, we have to 
elect a chairperson for each table. The chairperson is going to have two 
major responsibilities. One is to summarize the group's responses to our 
four questions, and the other thing the chairperson is going to do is to 
immediately find somebody to do most of his or her work, and that is to 
appoint a recording secretary. So right now, everybody meet everyone. 
You can pick from these impressions the most competent and able and erudite 
person at your table and make that person the chairperson. However you do 
it is up to you. You have seventy-five seconds to do that now. 

All right. Has everybody got a chairperson? Everybody who has got a 
chairperson at a table, raise your hand. Now, elect your secretary. 
Appoint your secretary. Everybody got a secretary appointed? All right. 
We're going to proceed now. 

First of all, I'm not going to introduce anybody because everybody here 
is very important and I'm sure you are all used to being introduced at 
every meeting you attend -- but we haven't got the time. God bless you 
all, and thank you for attending and an appropriate applause given to 
every one of you. 

Now, let's talk about the packets that are on the table. You have what 
they call idea cards. Mr. Chairman, take those packets and distribute 
one to each of the people at your table. Now, that's a pretty tough job, 
Mr. Chairman or Miss Chairwoman. The person who controls the idea cards 
has the power. Right? 

Write on the idea card, first, "Topic No. 1," to identify it. Then write, 
"The variables of place and location," or some such key words to identify 
the idea. 

Now, consider the subject matter we have talked about on Theme No. 1; 
consider this for a few minutes and then, after you have considered it, 
write down on the idea card what your suggestion is or what you think are 
the variables to place and location affecting the growth of the region. 
No idea is bad. Any idea is good. I should also point out to you that 
as much as possible throughout our conversation and communication, talk 
in headline terms. Try to abbreviate terms and use key phrases whenever 
possible so we can identify them. At the end of the session we are going 
to collect and save all of the cards and all the ideas contained on them. 
Remember to be specific and do not generalize if it is possible. 

Take about five minutes and draft your best directive regarding the topic 
which is: What are the variables with reference to place and location 
affecting growth and development in the Old West Region? You can think 
about it and write down on your idea card what your ideas are. It should 
take about three minutes to do this -- each person, individually. This 
is not a group effort at this time. 

Here's where the chairperson goes to work and tries to effect this group 
dynamic or whatever it is we are attempting here today. We are going to 

II - 7 

have about twelve minutes and fifteen seconds, or something in that area, 
to get everyone at your table to state ideas or thoughts and have the 
recording secretary record the ideas. With about a minute or two left, 
I'm going to then alert you, because we want you to choose the best idea 
or perhaps some combination of the best idea or a summary, which you think 
is the one best thought or concept or observation, or the one best answer 
to the question. We want you to talk in what we call headline terms be- 
cause we're going to put these all on the blackboard, and we have a small 
blackboard. We may have to do a flip or something or other. It's very 
important that when you explain your concept to us and your answer to the 
proposal that, while you may want to explain in more detail, at least try 
to give us a ten or fifteen word summary. It's perfectly all right to put 
a more full answer if you want to on one of the blue cards, but we need 
to have a headline- type answer for purposes of further discussion. 

Sometime you are going to think two or three ideas are good. If they are 
part of a main idea or subpart, that's fine. But basically we want you 
to choose one answer or one concept at each table. As I have indicated to 
you previously, all of the blue cards will go to the Commission staff for 
study and review, so we want one idea or one solution from each table. 

FROM THE FLOOR: I'm not quite clear. I listed restrictions, problems, 
things that have to be overcome. Are you asking us how to surmount those 

MR. JENSEN: No. That's No. 2, We are identifying right now, but, as I 
said, you may want to identify place and location. Places and locations 
may be places and locations which exist throughout the region, but they 
are a small community, a rapidly developing community. They may be an 
Indian Reservation, or it may be the ghetto of Omaha. I don't know. They 
may or may not repeat themselves. They may be areas of agricultural 
depression as far as prices. It may be the small communities, whatever 
these problems are. Chairperson, you are in charge of a discussion which 
is going to last approximately eleven minutes to come up with the best 
answer -- the best identification in answer to the question. So you may 
proceed. The recording secretary takes down the conversation as best as 
possible because we will want to have that recorded, all the points. 

Have all the secretaries written down the summaries? 

One minute to vote on the answer or identification which you think is the 
most appropriate answer to our question. So we want you to pick one or at 
least a related answer and vote on that as being one that you are going to 
submit to us for recordation and for future discussion. At this point in 
time you should not be discussing, you should be voting. You are all 
voting at each table on what you think is most important. And right now 
the secretary should be writing down on the summary card. Take one blue 
card and write Topic 1, Summary on it. Write on that card the one answer 
or recommendation, topic, whatever you call it. 

II -8 

All right. Every table that's ready, raise your hand, please. How many 
tables are ready to proceed? Do you have the sunmary? Okay. We are 
going to start. 

What I'd like to have the chairman do is to have the recording secretary, 
as soon as the chairman has given his report, to bring up all the cards 
from that table and give them to Ted. You can use your summary card to 
refer to in giving your report, but as soon as that is done, either the 
chairman or the recording secretary should bring up all the cards, the 
summary cards plus the cards, and give them to Ted, and we will start up 
with a bunch of cards. This table -- who's the chairman? 

TABLE 1: I'm Bill Dando, and I'm elected chairman of Table No. 1. I'm 
also chairman of the Department of Geography of the University of North 
Dakota. Our statement reads as follows: The basic variables affecting 
place and locations of economic growth and development of the region 
include, 1. a growth policy, i. e., a desire for growth and a definition 
of why growth is necessary; 2. factors which will enable us to grow, 
capital resources, labor forces and markets; 3. location of places where 
growth should be focused; and 4. a situation of identified places or 
location in relation to the overall economic scheme of the world, nation 
and region. 

MR. JENSEN: Okay. Do you want to explain that in any detail? 

TABLE 1: Well, whenever we reviewed the cards, we found that everyone 
had just about hit the same points, and we just had to put it into a 
little statement of some sort. We thought No. 1, in order to have 
growth, you had to have a growth policy. There should be a statement of 
why you want growth and what you want to do, and if you have a statement 
of the type of growth, this will enable you to determine which way growth 
goes. If you want growth, the statement was made that one of the factors 
that should be thought about is keeping our people in our region. As 
pointed out, we are an exporter of trained personnel, of highly trained 
individuals from our colleges, universities, technical schools and what- 
ever else it might be. And one thought would be that we would like to 
have growth in order to retain our children here in North Dakota, so this 
is one thought. ^ 

MR. JENSEN: What variables, if any, did you identify between growth 
patterns in the region, or did you consider that? 

TABLE 1: We felt that each area would have a different thought or a 
policy or a series of policies or, shall we say, a goal plus different 
objectives or ways of reaching the goal. But the overall for the entire 
region perhaps would be first a statement that you want some type of 
growth. If there's no statement for growth, then you don't have growth, 
but you have to make some type of start to begin with. This makes growth 
possible. It makes growth easy once you define it. So you have your 
particular objective or, shall we say, your goal. Each year we have 
objectives or each three years we have objectives. We say we are at this 
plateau; now we can build a little more. 

II - 9 

MR. JENSEN: That's good. Would you please give us again the cards and 
summary card and give> that to Mr. Muenster. Who wants to be Table No. 2? 
Identify yourself, please. 

TABLE 2: I'm Vince Pickard, Executive Secretary of the V^yoming County 
Commissioners Association. I'm chairman of this table rather than chair- 
person. The vote on that was six to one. I think we made a mistake when 
we read the question, and so our variables can be paraphrased, I think, 
in one sentence, that we are more different than we are alike. 

MR. JENSEN: What areas are more different than alike? 

TABLE 2: By that, when we mention variables, we talked about things like 
geography, topography, climate, political boundaries, the presence of 
absence of natural resources of one type or another. So, consequently, 
our thought for a specific solution or direction can be stated in news- 
paper terms as to say, recognize your resources and utilize the same to 
develop your existing resources. 

MR. JENSEN: If you can't read this, this says, more variables than simi- 
larities in the region; recognize resources and development. Number one 
is growth policy, growth policy factors; growth is desirable and there's 
need for goals regarding growth. 

Are those summaries acceptable to you. Table 1? 

Table 2, is that an acceptable headline-type summary? Is that acceptable 
to Table No. 2? 

TABLE 2: We are satisfied. 

MR. JENSEN: Anything else you want to comment on? 

TABLE 2: No. 

MR. JENSEN: Who wants to be Table No. 3? 

TABLE 3: I am Jack Hawker from Jackson, Wyoming, and we ran through the 
same kind of variables including natural resources and climate and geog- 
raphy, but our headline summary statement would be to identify those 
natural and human resources and liabilities that exist at the local level 
first, identify the alternatives, and our table felt quite strongly about 
including local opinions and desires of the people in the small location 
for the quality of life they want to preserve. In other words, I think 
we felt that growth means different things to different locations, and 
it's important to consider what people in that region think. 

MR. JENSEN: What do you mean by "local"? You mean cities? 

TABLE 3: We weren't quite clear on that, except that we felt we should 
start at the smallest level instead of imposing something at the regional 

II - 10 

level down on the communities. We were a little unclear on what that meant 
to a small community of people or what some of those communities are thinking. 

MR. JENSEN: Are you saying that most of the smaller communities have similar 
problems in the region? 

TABLE 3: I think we were saying that. Yes. 

MR. JENSEN: In all states of the region? 

TABLE 3: No. I think we were talking about within a region, the small 
communities identifying their own problems first, and we maybe didn't get 
to the point of recognizing similarities among small communities. We 
didn't discuss that specifically. 

MR. JENSEN: You should not start with state and regional? You should 
start at the bottom? 

TABLE 3: Yes. 

MR. JENSEN: Bring in your conclusion, Carl, your summary card and your 
other cards, if you would, please. Next table. 

TABLE 4: I am Carl Larson, Rural Development Service. We have some of 
our attitudes on climate and business, quality of life, and we ended up 
with this statement or siuranary: General public needs to be involved and 
informed of the potential of the region for appropriate economic develop- 
ment and what it means to future growth and future development of the area. 
We thought about a common concern and the people's attitude, a desire to 
live where we are. We have to keep them better informed so they can stay 
in this region rather than go out and then return to the region. 

MR. JENSEN: You said the variables first. Your first statement -- industry 
-- you said there were variables in what? 

TABLE 4: The attitudes, the matter of business climate and quality of 

MR. JENSEN: Are these variables that exist in the region? Is that what 
you are saying? 

TABLE 4: Yes. 

MR. JENSEN: And how do they vary from place to location or did you come 
to any discussion on that? 

TABLE 4: We didn't go into any discussion on that. I don't think so, no. 

MR. JINSEN: All right. Fine. Thank you. We need your cards. Okay. 
Over lere. 

TABLE 5: I'm Lloyd Rickes, chairperson of this table by a very narrow vote. 

II - 11 

Our sununary is: Place and location for balanced growth and development 
will be determined by -- and I guess if you're looking for a few words, 
that's where you take up resource location and attitudes toward develop- 
ment in response to government and industry action. I guess our discussion 
centered on the idea that attitudes toward development combined with the 
resource location of this region are going to be keyed to determining where 
and why and what form development and growth take. 

MR. JENSEN: Are you saying that there are different attitudes now towards 
growth and development in the region? 

TABLE 5: Yes. 

MR. JENSEN: How do they vary from place to location? What location to 
location or place to place? 

TABLE 5: We discussed that to some extent. We are not sure you can 
summarize exactly how they vary, but we are all convinced that they do 
vary across the region and that attitude based on how they vary may have 
a great deal to do with how the development takes place or doesn't take 

MR. JENSEN: We need those cards in the back. 

TABLE 6: Mr. Chairman, I was designated chairperson of our table. I'm 
not sure it was a democratic process, but nonetheless that designation 
was made. Our group also came up with a listing of variables. Variables 
of place and location are based on, one, existing economic conditions; 
two, on unique natural and human resource limitations; three, isolation of 
individual communities and persons; four, individual aspirations and needs 
and climatic conditions. In summary statement, a key variable for economic 
development of places would be how individual aspirations and needs can 
best be met within the unique natural and human resource limitations of 
that place within the region. 

MR. JENSEN: Would you go over those variables? I have a variable of 
economic conditions, individual resources. 

TABLE 6: Unique natural and human resource limitations. Isolation of 
individual communities and persons. Individual aspirations and needs and 
climatic conditions. 

MR. JENSEN: Now, do these vary as far as -- obviously, climatic conditions 
might not be appropriate -- but do these vary from small communities to 
large communities, from agricultural areas to nonagricultural areas? 

TABLE 6: We discussed the disparity that exists between the remote areas 
and other areas. 

MR. JENSEN: Are you saying we need to make improvements in remote areas? 
Are you saying we need to improve the resouce development of human beings 

II - 12 

in isolated and smaller areas? 

TABLE 6: I need some help from ray committee. Improvement of communica- 
tion and transportation, other kinds of service. 

MR. JENSEN: As it affects the small communities? 

TABLE 6: yes. 

MR. JENSEN: All right. IVho is next? 

TABLE 7: I'm Harvey Bryan from Wolfpoint, and we have about seven points 
we'd like to present. 

MR. JENSEN: Is there a summary focal point? 

TABLE 7: Okay. We decided the key to the area was our resources and, 
therefore, the use of these resources or marketing of resources in agri- 
culture and coal was critical to the development of this area. We did 
discuss mining as one of the solutions. The main thing, I guess, is the 
cost of space out here, and we thought until we can get some capital into 
the area from the outside, this is one of the ways that we can neutralize 
the cost of space in the west. And also we felt we have some political 
power. These were two factors that were discussed in relation to the 
state. The Indian people, in addition, should have an input as far as 
the development of Indian Reservations is concerned. One of the key 
points was: What do the citizens desire and how do they participate in 
the structure or the goals that are adopted? We feel that attitude and 
values and knowledge and change, the willingness to accept change, and 
skills are critical. And we felt maybe a statewide process should be 
developed in this some way, the state having a process of involving more 
people in the structure. I guess -- I note what this lady said here -- 
that she figured local participation against state, too much state parti- 
pation. We discussed at our table that possibly the state should have a 
major role involvement for two reasons. One would be to avoid local 
parochialism. Basically, the self-interested doesn't see the overall 
needs of the state. Of course, if the state doesn't do it, too many times 
the federal wisdom doesn't take into consideration the problems in the 
local areas with these subdistricts you're talking about. 

MR. JENSEN: What about the variables again between these problems? 
Did you look at the variables between agricultural areas, small areas, 
the Indian Reservations or the Indian communities? Or are you talking 
about these problems or goals as they affect the entire region? 

TABLE 7: Well, speaking of variables, we are all having trouble with that. 

MR. JENSEN: The idea we are getting at here -- you have to talk about state 
involvement. In other words, are these problems of state, of individual 
states, or are they problems which affect all small communities? Or are 
they only regional problems? What is the variety of problems or goals from 
place to place, location to location, from the western part of South Dakota 

II - 13 

to the eastern part of Montana, or whatever? I mean, are these regional 
problems which exist? 

TABLE 7: I think we accept the regional problems, but it probably has to be i 
broken down into some other level to get into specifics. They are all inter- 
related. The problem is, where is the process to coordinate the activity? 

MR. JENSEN: Thank you very much. Bring your cards and summary sheet here. 


TABLE 8: My name is Dan Bucks. I'm former Commissioner of the Planning \ 
Commission in South Dakota and currently a graduate student in the University ] 
of Montana. Our group identified several factors affecting place and location, 
not all of the factors which we view neutrally. Some we view favorably and j 
some unfavorably. One, economic agricultural conditions; two, the demands for i 
energy resources within the regions; three, the citizens' preference for the 
rural lifestyle with less concern for higher incomes, existing location patterns^ 
climatological fluctuations, and the availability of water and other natural re- ] 
sources in particular places. The group summarized its attitudes towards these 
factors in the following manner. The group sees a growing conflict between the 
desire to maintain a rural lifestyle with vital rural communities and the pattern 
of development emerging from the development of energy resources and the depresse 
farm economic conditions. The group prefers the maintenance of the rural life- i 
style, I might say almost to a militant degree. i 

MR. JENSEN: One more. 

TABLE 9: Alan Brakke, Mitchell, South Dakota, concerned citizen. General 
Manager of a newly formed advertising agency. I'm chairman of this table, 
elected by a vote of seven to one, mine being the dissenting vote. But here 
I am. Our final statement reads: The preservation of a viable agricultural 
economy while continuing to create job opportunities for those people coming 
in and for our youth to stay. Variables which we discussed under this are 
capital, agricultural prices, environment, education, natural resources, trans- 
portation, and our own individuality. 

MR. MUENSTER: Would you run that list through again, please? 

TABLE 9: I will give it to you. 

MR. JENSEN: I think we have covered everyone now. We've covered everyone. I 
suggest to you that we have some good input. Some of our points or comments 
and summaries are on point. Some of them are straying a little bit to a more 
general topic. I understand that because I understand a lot of this is 
apparently a little bit vague. But what we are trying to locate in this group 
as much as possible is the concept of, for exanq)le, in Group 9, that in the 
region there may well be a desire to preserve the agricultural economy and the 
agricultural lifestyle or rural lifestyle as much as possible and accommodate 
growth without eliminating or interfering substantially with this type of 
approach to lifestyle and living, and also business opportunity, education, 
and so forth. This is the kind of thing we want to try to come up with and 
look at. Or are we going to look at the problem? If we are going to analyze 
the things, do we need to look at the small communities first, or do we have 

II - 14 

problems in the communities over ten thousand, do we have problems in the 
resource areas, this sort of thing? We certainly want to have a regional 
approach. There's a dichotomy here in looking at places and locations within 
the region and trying to have a regional approach. But as much as possible, 
we want to see what we are looking at with reference to places and locations 
with planning and development recommendations to the Commission. I think it's 
important for summary purposes when we discuss the next question or next theme 

Group 1 has said that we should have a growth policy and growth is desirable. 
There should be an outline of growth and timetables and adaptation of a 
policy and growth. In discussing this, I think what you should do is con- 
sider this concept that growth is desirable. If you don't agree with that 
concept, I think probably what you should try to do is identify those parts 
of growth which, 1 guess, are less desirable than others. I think we have to, 
to some extent, take the assumption that growth is here. The concept that 
there are more variables than similarities in the region -- what problems does 
that cause for us? Do you agree with that? Consider that in our next topic 
of conversation. The concept that if there are problems by place and location, 
the problems and the way we should identify those problems should be at the 
local or small community level, and there's a problem regarding attitude 
towards growth. If we're going to have growth, perhaps we need to work on 
community attitudes and development regarding growth. The problem of resource 
location is a problem, which again is a concept we are talking about. Resource 
location, as far as energy or as far as minerals -- or perhaps as far as work — 
are concerned, is not uniform throughout the region, so we need to be able to 
identify and find out the problems of resource development by resource location. 

We have the concern about the isolation of communities, and this is a problem 
which I think is common throughout the entire area -- the few population 
centers that we have. This is something that we have to concentrate regional 
attention on -- the improvement of life and preservation of lifestyle in the 
isolated communities. One group has suggested that we need to have basically 
a state policy for growth development because, I assume, of the coordination 
effect of a state policy. But, I assume that we would have to consider what 
input could be made, then, for a community and small community sources to have 
some control over, say, the state-wide policy. 

We talk about the conflict between the rural lifestyle and the location and 
places here being the rural area, nonpopulated areas, and the problems of 
growth as they affect the rural and smaller areas, and the concept that we 
have problems of capital, problems of agriculture prices, problems of 
education, resources, these sort of things. We need to preserve the agri- 
cultural economy and lifestyle and not leave that because that has been the 
growth of the area up to now. 

FROM THE FLOOR: 1 would beg to differ with you in your interpretation of 
some of those. On that rural lifestyle preferrable, we are not talking about 
tiny communities. We are talking about the rural lifestyle as being the 
lifestyle of this region. This is not a large industrial, urban kind of 
lifestyle. This is a rural lifestyle we have in this region. We are not 
just talking about little communities, and I don't think we need to accept 

II - 15 

the philosophy that growth is here and we have to accommodate it; nor do i 
we have a conflict between people wanting a rural lifestyle and growth that 

we have to work on the people's attitudes to get them to change their j 

heads around and accept the attitude that industry growth is desirable. I | 

think the question is: How do we make the policy affect the people? i 

MR. JENSEN: I'm commenting for you again in this next session. What I'm 
saying is that there's not a consensus. You are going to vote at your 
table what you think is most representative of your table. The voting is 
over after that. We are not going to adapt a plan today. We are not 
going to say anything is right or wrong. If I misstate something according 
to your definition, that's fine. I'm only trying to be provocative. You 
have an opportunity now to talk about the things that we have mentioned 
here and review them in your next buzz group session, and if you see some- 
thing here you want to disagree with and say, "This is wrong," you have 
the opportunity now in your buzz groups to do so. 

II - .16 


QUESTION #1: What are the variables with reference to place and location 
affecting growth and development of the Old West Region? 

The basic variable in "place and direction" of growth in the region is 
the: 1) desire to grow; 2) the resources that will enable economic 
growth; 3) places where growth should occur or be focused; and 4) the 
situation of the place or location in the overall economic scheme of the 
world, nation, or region. 

No, I don't believe relocation of people to areas where employment 
opportunities have been created by the Old West Commission. 

The idea of the W states as an economic region is not realistic. 

Transportation, markets, public service, capital, leadership in communi- 
ties and areas, cooperation between communities, education (vocational 
and higher), water and energy resources, farm programs and government 

1. Transportation - Better system. ; 

2. Industry - more agriculture oriented. 

3. Promotion of our educated youth to industry to come in and use what 
we have. 

4. Maintaining our way of life (or individuality) and our high environ- 
mental conditions (air, water). 

1. Inflation and regulation of land, machinery and inputs affecting 

2. Fluctuation of prices received by farmers, 

3. Absentee ownership of resources. 

4. The free enterprise system for allocation of resources (natural). 

1. Rate and scope of mineral development. 

2. Federal studies of energy development. 

3. Transportation (Public). 

4. Encouragement of "appropriate technology. 

5. Research or alternate energy. 

II - 17 

Key variable for development of places -- how individual aspirations and 
needs can be best met with the unique natural and human resource limitations 
of places in the region. 

Substantial economic development should stress the Federal contribution 
to Indian Reservations as planned by tribes. Indian Reservations should 
become more self-determined in developing their own economic base. The 
Region would be effectively stimulated by Indian Reservation economic growth. 

Use of long-range development goals/plans to eliminate disparities of growth 
regionally by setting forth realistic goals actually achieveable in a some- 
what flexible format. 

Get past tunnel vision. Short term activities. 

Identify principal factors that show sustained private market growth or 
decline. Determine costs or other flexibilities entailed in supporting 
further growth or accounting for further decline. 

Entrepreneurship . 

Economic location with respect to markets and resources (human and 

natural) . 

Business climate - taxes, public service, attitude. 

Physical infrastructure - transport, communication. 

Capital availability. 

Quality of life - including natural and human ammenities. 


Existing economic activity. 

1. Attitudes on the part of residents regarding the concept of growth and 

a. Values - priority placed on which ones, e. g. , social position, 
material well being, spiritual well being. 

b. Future - priority placed on planning. 

2. Geography of area and population density. 

Problems of transporation -- distances and costs. 
Locations - sparse population. 
Limited industrial sites. 

II - 18 

Work force potential. 

Work accountability. 

What creates demand for work? Needed natural resources? 

What affect pay-for-work-done? Demand? Union? 

How does transportation availability affect potential of area? 

1. Agricultural market demand and price condition. 

2. National demand for coal, uranium and other mineral resources. 

3. Availability of adequate water and energy resource in particular place. 

4. Availability of technology appropriate to development in region. 

5. Supply of entrepreneurial talent. 

6. Supply of public services in particular area. 


Proximity to resources. 
Centrally located. 
"Room" for growth. 

Desire to grow. 


Transportation system. 

Mainstream U. S. (Coasts), 

Growth limit. 


Lack of desire to grow. 

Each existing community and trade area should be strengthened so that the 
culture of the area is maintained. Growth centers are not acceptable. 
Agricultural trade areas should be strengthened by improving the opportunity 
for small businesses to be developed, locally financed and controlled, to 
provide as many of the local consumer needs as possible. The objective 
should be to develop self-sufficient, self-controlled communities and 
businesses, utilizing local natural resources, finances, labor and other 
resources. We need to work for a steady state of economy, not a big 
growth economy, so we can absorb our own youth and less than 5% immigration 
per year in any one location. (Not an average . ) 

It should facilitate the realization of a Jeffersonian philosophy of 
egalitarian democracy, and promote self-reliance and independence with inter- 
dependent cooperation, self-sufficiency, self-reliance and self-determination 
of individuals, communities, all existing local units of government and 
states. It should not result in more federal envolveraent in every aspect of 
society, the colonization of the area by the federal government, energy 
industries, or the change from a primarily agricultural economy to an in- 
dustrial economy. 

II - 19 

Geographic situation - demographic. 

Fewer votes in legislature (Federal). 

Lack of unified goals and program definition, causing conflicting 

actions and objectives. 

Financial funding for industrial growth (including transportation 

needs) . 

Stabilize base economy - agriculture. 

Industries or resources (mining and agriculture) . 
People available or potential. 
Markets - where? How reach? 

Provide loan guarantees to towns to cover the portion of population 
growth that may not come or, in potentially declining towns, to cover the 
potential per cent of revenue loss by decline to assure that all communities 
can financially provide a minimum level of priority facilities (also implies 
prioritizing minimum facilities). Then let the market relocate people. 

Energy development/transportation of coal. 

Inadequate economic base of fluctuating agriculture in loiral areas. 
Lack of skills, education, or opportunity in places of high unemploy- 
ment - center-city Omaha, reservations. 

1. Equalize rates of growth - diversification - neutralize cost of space, 

2. Focus on identifiable community with potential unemployment - 
economic base - services for an area - then let market function. 

3. State major priority role. Encourage diversification - avoid 

4. Private market not top priority for economic activity and population. 

5. "Citizen envolvement" criteria to any concept. Attitude - values - 
knowledge - willingness to change and skills are very basic to the 

6. Marketing research - critical concept. 

Coal location. 

Developable water. 

Recreation - developed and potential for new development, 

Desirability of the place and location as a home. 

Transportation system. 

Local attitude toward development. 

National demands. 

Capital society. 


Capital should be divided into "places" to make them attractive as 
places where people would prefer to live, i. e., city centers, expansion 
of public facilities, e. g. , libraries in small communities. 

Transportation -- air and rail. 

Differences in population. 

Laws and regulations affecting development. 

Water availability. 

Desire for creation of new job opportunities for those coming 

into the job market. 

Distance factor to population centers (large market areas) — trans- 
portation costs of moving products. 
Adequate water supply and distribution system. 
Attitude of population regarding growth and development. 
Climate and available natural resources for productive work force. 
Education and training levels. 

The region needs to establish growth goals which rely upon both land 
and resource use management. The actual implementation of the goals 
must be at the local level, both regional organizations and state 
government should promote the implementation of such a concept. 

Resettlement from urban to rural areas with necessary industrial or 
agricultural development (environmentally compatible) in resettlement 
areas . 


Human skills. 

People numbers. 

Develop monies available. 

Community attractiveness. 



Services (human services, community faciities)- 

Aggressive leadership. 

Proximity to major centers. 

II - 21 

Type of development activity. 

Volume of development and location. 

Needed workforce regarding specific development in varying areas. 

Present population and facilities relative to needed changes. 

Natural resources to be developed in a particular area 

Location of base natural resources, i. e., coal, water and selective 

values/problems. ''[ 

Federal and state constraints prohibiting or inhibiting development. 

Lack of public commitment favoring development between places. 

Should federal funding be the mechanism? ^ 

Local vs national attitudes/perspective towards development. \ 

1. Resources to develop: energy, agriculture, water. 

2. People - employment. Development goes where people want. Base of 
support for development. 

3. Housing. 

4. Increased tax base. 

5. Conclusion: Old West Region becomes economically viable and dis- 
continues trend toward out-migration. 

A) Capital. 

B) Labor supply. 

C) Spirit of business community. 

D) Mineral resources location. 

E) Infrastructure. 

F) Government attitude and location of political power. 

G) Individual initiative. 

H) Understand need for planning. 

Plant locations with reference to several communities and 
the larger area. 

Selection of agencies for employment of qualified people, both 
professional and vocational. 

1. Inadequate transportation facilities. 

2. Proximity to markets. 

3. Quality and quantity of labor force. 

4. Availability of capital. 

5. Local leadership. 

II - 22 

Need some natural growth policy with rural development policy. 
Need to stop exportation of people (forced migration) and money. 
(Example is to NE - MW coalition.) 
Need transportation improvements and government investment to assist. 

Markets, raw materials, labor force and the transportation system joining 
the three major factors. Additionally, there are dozens of impacting 
factors such as historical considerations, financing, cultural inclina- 
tions, site availability and suitability, etc. 

1. Government ownership of land. 

2. High taxes. 

3. Environmental restraints. 

4. Poor planning. 

5. Government influence through various agencies. 

6. Too many set asides. (Corps of Engineers, Forest Service, BLM.) 

— Variables of plant location: 1) Better transportation, 2) Safe and 
sanitary housing, 3) Need to develop our water more fully before it 
leaves our region. 

National Energy Policy -- A definitive policy and limited government 
obstacles. Technology of development. 

Agricultural Policy -- International marketing; fluctuations in : 
agriculture prices. 




Political boundaries. 

The basic vari.ibles affecting place and locations of economic growth and 
development of the regions include: i) a growth policy, i. e., a desire 
for growth and why; 2) factors which will enable us to grow, i. e., 
capital, resources, labor forces and markets; 3) location of places 
where growth should be focused; and 4) situations of places or locations 
in relation to the overall economic scheme of the world, nation and 

II - 23 

Population size -- labor, service sector, etc. 

Market area -- intrastate, interstate, region, local. 

Water and energy availability -- limiting factors. 

Community services and facilities -- adequate? 

Transportation -- rail, air, highway. 

Housing -- number of units, substandard. 

Community commitment -- does community want economic development? 

Maintaining or improving a quality environment, including clean air 
and water. 

Not to lose track of why Old West Region is a desirable place in 
which to live. 

Growth hindered by location. Bring industry to raw material location. 
Raw materials cost, surplus wheat. Plants to process raw material. 
Plants to utilize energy. 

Governmental efforts should be directed to providing adequate return on 
investments in OW region -- especially to those industries utilizing 
available resources. 

Population size -- transportation -- power -- city services -- labor 
interest of area in growth. 

Different but the same. Recognize the changes and build upon them. 

Current population centers. 

Resource location -- availability of water. 

Natural land features. 

Transportation availability -- access. 

Way of life to lie preserved. 

Population, location relative to population centers, climate, transpor- 
tation, geography as related to land use. 

II - 24 

1. Desegregate region from state. 

2. Identify growth potential in each state. 

3. Assign a certain amount of money to priority projects in terms of 
highest return per number of people affected in each state. 

4. Develop those projects that yield the highest return in terms of 
regional economic goals. 

Three primary resources are required for growth and development: 
1) Adequate population base; 2) Natural resources; 3) Technology. 
Some secondary variables required should also be considered: quality of 
life desired, environmental factors, adequate transportation capabilities, 
educational capabilities. 

Public opinion (specific support for regional concept). 
Economic capability to implement: 

- Rate of resource development. 

- Adaptability of political processes to change. 

- Calculating the risks of change. 

- Socio-cultural-historical transitions. (Preservation for 
continuity of generations.) 

Areas of sparse population; per capita income; connecting transporation; 
areas of rapid energy-related growth (creating areas of uneven growth); 
natural resources shortages and supply; proximity to market areas. 

Each community must be able to identify its indigenous resources and 
liabilities. The skills in its population, transportation, crops, 
weather, capital, natural resources, needs of surrounding areas, history. 
An idea team - multidisciplinary - from outside - can often help them 
identify these factors. 

1. Market size -- population, per capita income. 

2. Proximity to large market areas. 

3. Transportation facilities. 

4. Climate. 

5. Natural resources. 

6. Labor productivity. 

7. Educational -- job training program. 

8. Cyclical fluctuation in agricultural income. 

II - 25 

Tendency to send raw materials and resources outside region should be 
reversed and investments made within the region to bring industry and 
outside resources into the region for further development. 

Information centers to inform citizens of the need for economic develop- 
ment within the region. Local governments should be involved and directing 
the federal government in the implementation of district planning boards 
within a state. 

1. Availability of public services and amenities. 

2. Housing identification/availability. 

3. Direct transportation linkages. 

4. Possibility of employment in regards to duration. 

5. Outside investment interest. 

6. Availability of resource markets. 


The basic variables affecting place and locations of economic growth and 
development of the region include: 

1. A growth policy, i. e., a desire for growth and why. 

2. Factors which will enable us to grow, i. e., capital, resources, 
labor forces, and markets. 

3. Location or places where growth should be focused. 

4. Situations of places or locations in relation to the overall economic 
scheme of the world, nation and region. 

Topography, climate, resources, political boundaries, geography. 

Identify natural and human resources and liabilities at local level first; 
identify alternatives; include local opinion and desires for quality of 

General public needs to be involved and informed of potential of the 
region for appropriate economic development and what it means to the 
future growth and further development of the area. 

Place and location for balanced growth and development will be determined 
by resource location and attitudes toward development in response to 
government and industry actions. 

II - 26 

1. Existing economic conditions. 

2. Unique natural and human resource limitations. 

3. Isolation of individual communities and persons- 

4. Individual aspirations and needs. 

5. Climatic conditions. 

Resources - agriculture, energy, skilled people, transportation. 

We must use these in the best possible way - including political power. 

Resources -- ag coal. 

Use of Resources 
— marketing 

Cost of space -- potential power. 

Indians -- capital - skills. 

Citizen's desires — participation (attitudes, values, knowledge, 

change, skills, know what people want, state-wide process). 

Identify potential of area — potential of unemployment, economic 


State - a major roll. 

Agricultural economic conditions. 

Demand for energy resources. 

Citizens' preference for rural lifestyle with less concern for higher 


Existing location patterns. 

Climatological fluctuations. 

Availability of water and other natural resources in particular 


Preservation of a viable agricultural economy while continuing to create 
job opportunities for those coming in and for our youth to stay. 
Variables: Capital 




Agricultural prices 


Natural resources 

II - 27 

MR. JENSEN: Our next question is: What should we do to promote 
opportunities and eliminate barriers as such policies relate to place 
and location? 

The barriers are some things we just discussed, and such policies relate 
to place and location. Again, I'm saying place and location. Let's not 
talk about the overall region. You have an opportunity now to use your 
cards. Write on the top, "Topic 2, Theme 2, Elimination of barriers and 
promotion of opportunities." Considering the things we have just dis- 
cussed, what do you think? Each person should write individually on 
his card what it is that we should do to promote the opportunities and 
eliminate the barriers as they affect place and location of these things 
we have just discussed. Each person should write that down, and we will 
move ahead to the same process we had before of having group discussions. 

The secretary should be putting together the summary statement -- or the 
chairman -- whoever is writing the summary statement. As much as possible 
talk in headline statements in the summary so we can talk about headlines, 
brief words, things 1 can spell. 

We are going to proceed. Over here at my right can be Table No. 1 this 

TABLE 1: Our group interpreted the question as follows: What do we do to 
promote the opportunities for strengthening the rural lifestyle and elimin- 
ate the threat of concentrated industrial growth within the region? One, 
overall, the group consensus was that we oppose any goals for this region 
that promote concentrated industrial growth within the region and support 
goals for strengthening family farm agriculture, small local businesses and 
rural communities. The goals are to be achieved by, one, an all-out com- 
mitment at all levels of government to developing the renewable energy 
resources of the country and the region; two, strong, effective national 
energy conservation programs to retard the demand for energy; three, make 
available technology, training, capital and other necessary facilities 
and resources for the development of small localized businesses, by which 
we mean not only locally located but locally owned and controlled to the 
maximum degree, and appropriate and fitting with the local economy; four, 
promoting effective federal programs that assure the economic well-being 
of the family farm and encourage new entries into family farming and ranch- 
ing by young people or others wishing to establish family farms. 

What we support, then, is opposing concentrated industrial growth and 
supporting family agriculture for the base for the region. 

MR. JENSEN: And support family agriculture? 

TABLE 1: Family agriculture for the economic growth of the region; family 
farm agriculture and strong local businesses and rural communities. 

MR. JENSEN: Let me ;isk a question that may be on the mind of some people. 
What is concentrated industrial growth? 

II - 28 

1. Existing economic conditions. 

2. Unique natural and human resource limitations. 

3. Isolation of individual communities and persons. 

4. Individual aspirations and needs. 

5. Climatic conditions. 

Resources - agriculture, energy, skilled people, transportation. 

We must use these in the best possible way - including political power. 

Resources -- ag coal. 

Use of Resources 
-- marketing 

Cost of space — potential power. 

Indians -- capital - skills. 

Citizen's desires — participation (attitudes, values, knowledge, 

change, skills, know what people want, state-wide process). 

Identify potential of area — potential of uneii5)loyment, economic 


State - a major roll. 

Agricultural economic conditions. 

Demand for energy resources. 

Citizens' preference for rural lifestyle with less concern for higher 


Existing location patterns. 

Climatological fluctuations. 

Availability of water and other natural resources in particular 


Preservation of a viable agricultural economy while continuing to create 
job opportunities for those coming in and for our youth to stay. 
Variables: Capital 
I Education 



Agricultural prices 


Natural resources 

II - 27 

MR. JENSEN: Our next question is: What should we do to promote 
opportunities and eliminate barriers as such policies relate to place 
and location? 

The barriers are some things we just discussed, and such policies relate 
to place and location. Again, I'm saying place and location. Let's not 
talk about the overall region. You have an opportunity now to use your 
cards. Write on the top, "Topic 2, Theme 2, Elimination of barriers and 
promotion of opportunities." Considering the things we have just dis- 
cussed, what do you think? Each person should write individually on 
his card what it is that we should do to promote the opportunities and 
eliminate the barriers as they affect place and location of these things 
we have just discussed. Each person should write that down, and we will 
move ahead to the same process we had before of having group discussions. 

The secretary should be putting together the summary statement --or the 
chairman -- whoever is writing the summary statement. As much as possible 
talk in headline statements in the summary so we can talk about headlines, 
brief words, things I can spell. 

We are going to proceed. Over here at my right can be Table No. 1 this 

TABLE 1: Our group interpreted the question as follows: What do we do to 
promote the opportunities for strengthening the rural lifestyle and elimin- 
ate the threat of concentrated industrial growth within the region? One, 
overall, the group consensus was that we oppose any goals for this region 
that promote concentrated industrial growth within the region and support 
goals for strengthening family farm agriculture, small local businesses and 
rural communities. The goals are to be achieved by, one, an all-out com- 
mitment at all levels of government to developing the renewable energy 
resources of the country and the region; two, strong, effective national 
energy conservation programs to retard the demand for energy; three, make 
available technology, training, capital and other necessary facilities 
and resources for the development of small localized businesses, by which 
we mean not only locally located but locally owned and controlled to the 
maximum degree, and appropriate and fitting with the local economy; four, 
promoting effective federal programs that assure the economic well-being 
of the family farm and encourage new entries into family farming and ranch- 
ing by young people or others wishing to establish family farms. 

What we support, then, is opposing concentrated industrial growth and 
supporting family agriculture for the base for the region. 

MR. JENSEN: And support family agriculture? 

TABLE 1: Family agriculture for the economic growth of the region; family 
farm agriculture and strong local businesses and rural communities. 

MR. JENSEN: Let me ask a question that may be on the mind of some people. 
What is concentrated industrial growth? 

II - 28 


TABLE I: Coal strip, et cetera. 

MR. .JliNSI-.N: Arc you sure th.'it's iiidust ri.i 1 Kf'owth? Or is thnt develop- 
ment of resources? 

TABLE 1: That's industrial growth. We recognize the need for energy by 
calling for the commitment to renewable sources. 

MR. JENSEN: Are you opposed to a company coming into a small community 
and providing a permanent manufacturing situation which would provide 
two or three hundred jobs? 

TABLE 1: Yes. 

MR. JENSEN: You are opposed to that? 

TABLE 1: If it conflicts with the agricultural base. 

MR. JENSEN: Okay. 

TABLE 1: Wait a minute. You didn't finish that. We said strong 
rural communities. 

MR. JENSEN: I'm going to erase this in a minute. I think everybody has 
heard your report. The main thing is to have those things you talked 
about on your blue summary card. Is there one more thing you wanted to 
add here? 

TABLE 1: Strong rural communities. 

MR. JENSEN: Okay. We have No. 1. Anybody who can follow that act? 

TABLE 2: On our summary card we have the statement that it is necessary 
to define growth with local participation and decision making. Based on 
this, we have some of these increments of the state, we have the sub- 
topics that it is necessary to recognize the local resource capability. 
One of the items that has to be considered is the free market approach 
to growth, state and federal financing, and technical assistance may be 
necessary to promote growth. We have also decided that the rural life- 
style is difficult to define. It's necessary to evaluate the state's 
land use policies regarding its capabilities to implement "growth." 
Our sixth subtopic is that it is vital that the local areas define growth 
and elect the course of action that the area takes. 

MR. JENSEN: That's very good. We have summarized this in one main state- 
ment as defining growth with local participation and local decision making. 

TABLE 2: Right. The vote is seven to zip on that one. 

MR. JENSEN: Are some of the other ones divided votes? 

TABLE 2: Every other topic was one to six. 


MR. JENSEN: That's right. The power is the guy with the card. I told . ; 

you that. i 

TABLE 2: But it wasn't always the same people. 

MR. JENSEN: Next. '■ 

TABLE 3: Our summary statement reads as follows: To overcome the barrier 
of parity prices for agriculture and consolidation of government licensing 
agencies on all government levels. Also, overcoming the barrier of a lack 
of attitudinal consensus on a regional growth policy. 

MR. JENSEN: What was that about the attitude? \ 

TABLE 3: A lack of attitudinal consensus on a regional growth policy. 

MR. JENSEN: Now, by "lack of consensus," are you saying there should be 1 

a consensus in favor of growth? ; 

TABLE 3: Rational growth. I 

MR. JENSEN: There's good growth and bad growth? ■ 

TABLE 3: Right. We are saying right now there's no consensus. It's a ', 

big barrier. • 

MR. JENSEN: That's good. That's a good point. All right. Over here. > 


TABLE 4: The summary card reads as follows: Develop an open process of ] 

education for all segments of government, industry and individuals to ; 

the possibilities of growth and development to coordinate all interest j 

into a compatible result. i 

MR. JENSEN: Develop a process of education on the possibilities and oppor- • 

tunities of growth? \ 

TABLE 4: Yes -- for government, industry and individuals. 

MR. JENSEN: Okay. Who is next? i 

TABLE 5: I think our group would back up their statement. To start you 
must have a local area consensus toward growth. Three points: Recognizing 

the specific local capabilities and input; a better process of discovering j 

education, desires, and needs that will identify the opportunities and j 

barriers; and we need dollars for this and a state concept. The last is to ] 

group them to see if similar consensus forms a region of similar interest. ^ 

It was brought out that one of the barriers to the Indian people is the \ 
Indian-state relationship regarding sovereignty. It was pointed out that 
stable resource prices are a barrier, and the other suggestion was that 
there are opportunities to plan for this energy growth. 

MR. JENSEN: Very good. Next. 

11-30 ! 

TABLE 6: Identify the resouces and our strengths as well as limitations 
that relate to the region, and involve local people including both the 
private and public agencies in cooperation to build on these resources. 

MR. JENSEN: Who's next? 

TABLE 7: We had great trouble reaching a consensus. We could not reach 
a consensus. We got as far as agreeing that each local area must identify 
its own appropriate rate and type of growth. There's some agreement on 
the need for more capital, but there's no agreement on the form that it 
should take and where it should be directed. I guess there's some disa- 
greement over whether growth is inevitable and how far we can go toward 
preserving the status quo. There's some other kinds of things mentioned 
such as government programs for relocating people from depressed areas, 
money for vocational training, but we are not as fortunate as this table 
where everybody is starting apparently to have the same premises. 

MR. JENSEN: Remember, those who want to certainly can take those individual 
cards and write anything regarding anything to which there is not a consen- 
sus point. If you want to identify yourself, it is perfectly proper and 
may be desirable, depending on the point you are making which may not be a 
consensus point. IVho's next? 

TABLE 8: Our statement reached in consensus was to create regional aware- 
ness. I will give you a summary statement: To create regional awareness 
of barriers through a regional education program; formulate and implement 
regional, state and local policies to cope with barriers limiting growth; 
promote outside the region the economic opportunities within the region; 
and, four, research into areas of economic opportunities to determine where 
best to concentrate efforts. Our summary statement is: Awareness; stated, 
well-thought-out policies; promotion, and research. 

MR. JENSEN: Very good. Be sure and bring your cards in. Would the chair- 
man now check or the secretaries check to see if they have enough cards for 
the next session. You should have one card for each person plus your sum- 
mary card. We have one more group. 

TABLE 9: Oscar Lund. I'm trying to put together a consensus of some 
rather diverse ideas. We felt that the opportunities within the region 
include determing a means for state and local governments to balance those 
economic forces which are external to the state and region. An opportunity 
exists to provide skilled training in the energy-related jobs, an opportunity 
for establishing an educational or planning process that will clearly point 
out to all people in the area and the region and the local communities what 
growth alternatives are, and then from that to establish state and local 
policies to guide growth. Some of the key barriers to the region are lack 
of communication that springs from human factors, economic factors, insti- 
tutional barriers and external forces. A consensus summary statement of 
our Indian members: Don't be so willing to circle the wagon. We're skirting 
the issues. 

MR. JENSEN: Tell us what issues we are skirting. 

II - 31 

TABLE 9: Who has jurisdiction over the Indian people -- that type of 
issue. And we still haven't dialogued. Don't be so willing as the non- 
Indian to circle your wagon and close us out. Let's sit down and talk. 

MR. JENSEN: Any other examples of issues we are skirting? Those are two 
good ones, obviously. 

TABLE 9: Dealing with the external economic forces. 

MR. JENSEN: Dealing with the external economic forces outside the 
region. We have to someway adapt those pressures to the region. I think 
that is a very good point. Let me go over these briefly. The first group 
has suggested we oppose concentrated industrial growth which does include 
manufacturing as opposed to relatively short-term development of energy 

TABLE 1: Which what? 

MR. JENSEN: Which includes supporting family farms, small business and 
strong local communities. Second is to define growth with local partici- 
pation and decision making. Overcome barriers of policy and growth regu- 
lations, lack of consensus, and a regional approach. These are different 
concepts, but the idea is, barriers exist. We need to do this. Govern- 
ment regulation, lack of consensus can be solved by an approach to regional 
growth. Develop open process of education and possibilities and opportuni- 
ties in growth. That's where government, industry and individuals have to 
work in this area. Develop local consensus in favor of growth. Identify 
resources, strengths and limitations at the local level; and local areas 
must identify the amount of desirable growth. Awareness of stated, well 
thought-out policies of promotion and research in the area of growth, and 
the balance of external forces that affect the area. Don't skirt the issues 
as they have direct effect on the region and the communities of the region. 

Let me ask something here which I think will be helpful to the Commission; 
it is that in identifying growth, we must give a serious amount of thought 
to local communities, local planning, participation by local government and 
citizens of local communities in defining desirable growth and working 
towards perhaps some limitation of growth which will continue to be desirable.! 

Let me ask again. Are we talking about all local communities, or are we 
talking about agriculture communities? Are we talking about communities 
of five thousand or less, or are we talking about local government including 
those which may have been an SMSA size? Let me ask each chairman, if they 
would, to tell me what they are talking about and have our secretary record 
it. IVhen they're talking about local communities and local government, what 
are they talking about at their table? 

TABLE 1: Our table is talking about the existing communities as they now 
define themselves and as they are now identified, and they vary in size 
from Omaha to Pukwana, South Dakota, and other such places. 

MR. JENSEN: You're talking about structures of local government on a city- 
town basis? 

II - 32 


TABLE 1: And county. 

MR. JENSEN: Well, okay. 

TABLE 1 : Any local communities that now define themselves as a community — 
with governmental relationship to local government. 

MR. JENSEN: Okay. Over here. 

TABLE 2: We're talking about the Old West Region. 

MR. JENSEN: The whole Region. 

TABLE 3: I think we're talking about any groups of communities, groups 
of communities with a common base. It might be each individual county or 
it might be a group of small towns, as long as they identify common means. 

MR. JENSEN: It could be an association of local governments in a particular 
area? It could be four or five communities? 

TABLE 3: As long as they perceive common needs and goals. 

MR. JENSEN: Over here. 

TABLE 4: We're talking about all of them, and I think to interpret that, 
probably what we are saying is there must be a communication process, and 
you can't really assign it to one person. The process has to involve 
elements of all the sections that interact, so we see a need for a new 
concept and dollar support, a totally new concept of process, and I don't 
think that you can isolate it. It's where they all get some interaction and 
arrive at a consensus from the area. 

MR. JENSEN: So it might be smaller than the region but larger than tradi- 
tional communities? 

TABLE 4: Right. We have been talking about a state goal developing out of 

an area, of a process from within the state, and the goals could be different. 

TABLE 5: We are making no distinction between large and small communities. 
We are talking about communities of common interest, communities of common 

MR. JENSEN: Okay. 

TABLE 6: We are talking about, I think, communities of all sizes. We are 
not trying to talk about any distinction between the two, but, more impor- 
tant, I think we are talking about the process of education and involvement 
as it affects individuals regardless of what size communities they are 
involved in. The involvement of the individual. 

TABLE 7: Wo were talking about all communities, not a matter of size, but 
a matter of common interest. 

II - 33 

MR. JENSEN: All right. 

TABLE 8: Someone said we're talking about communities of over a million 
in size only, but I think what we are really concerned about is the concept 
of the community as defined by Bitunan, Christofer and Lusch. It's a group 
of people who group together for a common goal or ideals. They could be 
any size. 

MR. JENSEN: The question, then, has to arise: How do you involve parti- 
cipation by the citizenry in that decision-making process? Of course, 
the larger the community, I assume the more difficult it becomes. 

TABLE 8: I have a question, sir. I would like to ask whoever was the 
spokesman for statement No. 5 — 

MR. JENSEN: Local consensus, in favor of growth? 

TABLE 8: Yes. Did you mean to develop a local consensus on growth 
rather than in favor of growth? 

MR. JENSEN: I thought it was a positive statement. 

TABLE 8: I would like to ask for clarification of that. 

MR. JENSEN: Nobody recognizes that. I made that up myself. I'm sure I 
got a positive statement. 

TABLE 6: I don't think so. 

MR. MUENSTER: I got the word "on." 

TABLE 8: Whether there's any consensus for growth, it's on growth. I 
seem to interpret these things as a favorable attitude toward growth and 
I don't like that. 

MR. JENSEN: That's why we're trying to get the input. Do we fight 
growth, live with growth or promote growth? Those are the things we have 
to consider. Again, keep in mind, I will erase this blackboard and your 
cards are what are going to be the permanent record. We are not going to 
send this blackboard back to Washington, and I'm not going back to Wash- 
ington either. Now, we have about a half hour. 

TABLE 9: You forgot one table. We'll let it go this time. I think our 
major consensus is tha when we're talking about governing bodies or this 
type of thing, regardless of the size of the cities, whoever is involved 
throughout, oftentimes forgotten governmental groups which are our town- 
ships, counties, state; and our region. The process has to come from the 
beginning, the lower Itvels of government all the way through to the regional 
areas . 




QUESTION #2: What should we do to promote opportunities and eliminate 
barriers as such policies relate to place and location? 

Growth policy consensus: 

Promote policies to stabilize agriculture prices at reasonable 

levels -- alcohol, international trade. 

Increased education - Vo-Tech for opportunities which exist in 

region (or may exist -- manufacturing). 

Plan to handle energy resource growth. 

1. Get people in the field, not behind desks or at "representative" 

2. What about an implementation policy? 

3. Education - on what local groups must do for development: 

a. business 

b. quality of life. 

4. Haves vs. have-nots. 

The states to deal w/each tribe and the feds not to over-power tribes 
with state rights which forgo PL Code 15 of Federal Regs and/or treaties. 
State and region want this development for the tribes -- maybe tribes 
don't want change. 

Get a consensus from population -- outline major wants. Initiate 
workable state policy and objectives for overall needs of state and regions 
of interest. Balance reliance on agriculture economy -- stabilize mar- 
ginal areas (holding pattern only); concentrate on high potential centers 
in each state; adopt "Model City" - area concept of appropriate growth. 

Must have growth policy. Provide communication and stimulate same. 
Desires of community, county, state, region? 

1. State-wide citizen involvement in area process. 

2. Balanced growti (environment, economy - agriculture) - wide input. 
7>. Market producer needs more power. 

4. Feds bypassing State and local. Dollar impact without consensus. 

II - 35 

Derive a local - area consensus toward growth: 

a) Recognize specific local capability and input. 

b) Need better process (discover education desires and needs - need 
dollars for this and state concept). 

c) Group them to see if similar consensus from regions for similar 

1. Consensus established on need for growth. 

2. Need choice to promote best opportunity. 

3. Selection of best choice. 

4. Channel public funds to develop #3. 

Renaissance process culminating in a statewide identification of alterna- 
tive futures and development of a regional, state, and national loan to 
risk capital program to stimulate appropriate business and allow the 
vertical development of business based on indigenous human and natural 

Identify areas of appropriate growth; selectively improve transportation; 
identify areas of agricultural productiveness; support rural lifestyle; 
resource extraction, if inevitable, but process elsewhere. 

Each local area must identify appropriate rate and type of growth, 
some agreement on need for more capital. 

Each area must identify its own barriers and eliminate them as best they 
can through local efforts. State efforts and national efforts. Be realistic 
in seeking opportunities that are compatible with area. 

1. Government sponsored programs for education and training of minority 
groups . 

2. Government relocation grants to low-income groups to facilitate labor 
mobil ity. 

3. Government regulation of growth in energy-related development area jl 
via zoning, social overhead capital, front-end financing from private 

Develop our resources. 

11 - 36 

Because of the variability in the agricultural economic sector and its 
inability to supply adequate opportunities to its population base, it is 
necessary for growth: 

1) Educational program to educate indigenous population. 

2) Development of adequate information system. 

3) Refine public and private services required. 

4) Come to a consensus on the rate of growth. 

5) Adequate local input. 

Commitment to development of alternatives, renewable, non-depletable 
energy sources is answer to threat to rural lifestyle posed by industrial 
concentration or reliance on coal as answers to energy needs. 

Consolidation of licensing agencies (of some sort), i. e. , rather than 
going to 12 different agencies to get permit to locate. Create an umbrella 
group making this process. 

1. Plan specific needs and goals. 

2. Coordinate plan for area having similar problems. 

3. Eliminate outside detrimental influences. 

Regional control of energy development in the region. Cooperation within 
region on development of these resources. Heavy reliance upon private 
sector in this decision-making process. 

Complete area transportation rate study and advocacy. Keep and develop 
area water resources. Move agriculture related processes to area. 

To educate the world, nation and people in the region to the opportunities 
now identified and those that may be significant in the future -- 
education and illumination will eliminate most barriers. 

1. Promote outside region of opportunities for development within region, 
e. g., advertising of water and energy resources, superior and willing 
workforce, rural lifestyle, etc. 

2. Research into area of economic opportunity to determine where best to 
concentrate efforts. 

3. Finance best opportunity -- series of alternatives. 

II - 37 

To create a regional awareness of the barriers through a regional educational 
program of such barriers and to promote local, state and regional strategies, 
agreed to by citizen involvement and cooperation. 

Identify barriers, recognize lifestyle as an asset, capitalize assets, 
develop system of local determination with state and federal assistance 
in identification and capitalization. 

Define "growth" in relation to location, resources, desire. Not all 
types of economic growth are desirable in all places if we are to retain 
our present desirable lifestyle. 

Recognize - raw material 

products produced 

rural lifestyle is not a barrier 

costly transportation - a barrier 

Determine means for ^tate and local governments to balance economic 

Key barrier within region is lack of communication -- human factors and 
economic factors -- institutional factors -- external forces, development 
by energy companies, federal government. 

Determine a way for state governments to balance off against the monumental j 
economic power of energy companies affecting its region and lifestyle | 
(a regional approach may be one possibility). \ 

Better communication and transportation. 

Rural lifestyle vs. in-place urbanization. 

All citizens should benefit from growth without bearing disproportionate 

share of the costs associated with that growth. 

The promotion of regional planning which wi 
standing of linkages between communities, a 

11 lead to a greater under- I 
areas and states. I 

II - 38 

Make it clear to the population of areas what the growth alternatives are 
in terms of size and with emphasis on the likely consequences of alternative 
courses of action; then develop state and local policies to guide develop- 
ment, the state to assist local sub-areas in this regard. 

Question assumes goal of economic development. Some identified barriers 
are assets, e. g. , rural lifestyle which could be utilized to induce growth 
without violating such desire. State and local government can control use 
of land to induce or control growth. 

1. Local resources. 

2. With local decision -- state or federal financial assistance. 

3. Provide state development assistance. 

Promote policies which reinforce the rural agrarian lifestyle of the 
region and discourage, insofar as possible, those which threaten values 
such as low population density - family agriculture. 

Parity for farm products and the protection from outside capital and influ- 
ence for family farms. If agriculture does make a profitable enterprise, 
outside capital will move in and remove the family from the farm. 

State and local governments should work jointly to marshal available 
resources, e. i., communication with residents to make maximum use of 
limited resources. 

Develop a sound leadership to facilitate balanced growth - gas and 
industry. Attract Capital. Education. 

1. Education. 

2. Public involve! lent. 

3. Public opinion solicitation before planning and implementation. 

Education is what, when and how development of projects are to take 
place and how it benefits the whole area. 

II - 39 

Educational efforts in relation to investigation of potential and alterna- 
tives to growth and development leading to related policy decisions. 

Promote public interest in expressing desires by review of areawide 
planning (MUHI-County) organization results. 

Develop clearinghouse approaches to coordinate resouce inventories 
and options for development. 

Identify strengths and weaknesses of area through public involvement 
and then get people involved in how to develop the assets or strengths 
and minimize the weaknesses. 

Identify problems or issues that are common to places and determine if 
regional level solutions can be used or if response should be left with 
locality entirely. Cost out the alternatives. 

Greater toleration of differing viewpoints defending growth, development, 
local and regional futures, etc., recognizing the fact that we are in an 
inventive and/or creative period regarding future directions of the region 
and the various locations from within. 

Know resources of region. 

Better understand both opportunities and limitations. 

Ensure cooperation with other regions economically linked to Old West 

to strengthen Old West political effectiveness in pursuing its goals. 

Know what population desires vis-a-vis growth and lifestyle -- mandates 

public input and decision-making. 

Establish goals and objectives to coordinate not only programs and policies, 

but also agencies and levels of government. 

Local governments should be aware of conditions that affect region as 
well as nation and the individual citizens. ^„ii. 

1. District planning and information -- outlet and feedback from local 
governments to individual citizens. 

2. Local government should see that their suggestions are being imple- 

Avoid a premise that growth is inevitable and bigger is better 
this premise would be a limiting factor. 

II - 40 

1. Sell conununity on diversity of new industry. 

2. PR work on local authorities in city and county. 

3. Seek ways and means necessary to keep small communities, 

1. Attitude - isolated communities preserve lifestyle. 

2. Lack of vocational training centers in specific areas -- professional 
and information. 

3. Opportunities for employment. 

A) Clear coordination of information from all government levels. 

B) Understanding by local community of government programs and guarantees 
of funding programs from local level. 

A better understanding of the Region which includes its resources and 
how to take advantage of those resources. A better education system. 

1. Recognition of problem areas. 

2. Identify resource capability. 

3. Establish uniform, acceptable direction that maintains local 
integrity and enhances quality of life as identified by that 
local sector. 


Oppose goals that promote concentrated industrial growth within the 
region and support goals for strengthening family farm agriculture, 
small local businesses and rural communities. 

It is necessary to define growth with local participation and decision 
making -- elect the course of action that the area should take. 

To overcome the barrier of parity prices for agriculture and con- 
solidation of government licensing agencies on all goveamment levels. 
Overcome the barrier of a lack of attitudinal consensus on a regional 
growth policy. 

Develop an open process of education for all segments of government, industry, 
and individuals to the possibilities of growth and development to coordinate 
all interest into a compatible result. 

II - 41 

1. State-wide citizens involvement in process -- need better process, 
dollars for education. 

2. Balanced growth - environment, economy - agriculture, wide input. 

3. Market producer needs more power. 

4. Feds are by-passing state and local - dollar impact without consensus. 

Sovereignty - Indians - Federal/State conflict. 

Area process for goals by citizens -- opportunities, communication, 

voter needs education. 

Stable resources -- prices. Agriculture. 

Plan for energy growth -- opportunity. 

Identify the resources and/or strengths as well as limitations unique 
to the region; then involve local people, including both private and 
public agencies in cooperating to build on these resources unique to the 
area or region. 

Create regional awareness of barrier through a regional education program; 
formulate and implement regional, state, and local policies to cope with 
barrier limiting growth; promotion outside the region of the economic 
opportunities within the region; research into areas of economic oppor- 
tunities and determine where best to concentrate efforts. 

"Awareness; state, well-thought-out policies; promotion; and research." 

Determine means for state and local governments to balance economic 
forces external to the state and region. Provide skill training for 
energy related jobs. Governmental planning process to growth alternatives 
state and local policies to guide growth. 

II - 42 

MR. JENSEN: Our next question is: Should we concentrate our limited 
resources of funds, time and people in the areas where there is the 
most opportunity or in the locations where the disadvantages are the 

Concerning the policy that we adopt regarding problems of place and location 
on growth, should we try to go to the worst first? In other words, should 
we try to define the worst problems of unemployment, the problems of trans- 
portation, which are horrible, the problems of education? Or, should we, 
with limited resources, attack or try to support areas which show promise or 
are developing so we can go to the top and improve the overall character of 
the region or location or place. So, is worst or best first? We are using 
the assumption that we have limited resource of people, time and place. 
Do this very quickly because we are only going to have five or six minutes 
to discuss that situation. 

FROM THE FLOOR: Who is "we"? 

MR. JENSEN: We are talking about federal-state policy. We're talking about 
whatever we can do to direct to the regional concept attention towards 
federal development, state development, private development, regional coop- 
eration. Take about two minutes. If you have any question on this, I refer 
you to question 4 on the outline on page 5. 

We are going to proceed. Who wants to give us the first statement? 

TABLE 1: We had a mixed vote, of course, as you would expect. We will 
say worst three, best five. An there's no consensus, but we could make a 
statement of this sort, that if we take the majority statement, it would be: 
You plan for the good, for the good solution on the long run will take care 
of the bad. 

MR. JENSEN: Okay. No. 2. 

TABLE 2: We are unanimous that you take the resources to the promising 
areas. Since economic development is not a welfare program, put dollars 
where feasible, at the same time using geographic areas to minimize the situ- 
ation. , 

MR. JENSEN: Next. 

TABLE 3: Our group felt that we should address the worst first, the worst 
being depressed family farms, rural communities and Indian Reservations, 
with assistance, including and. emphasizing local solutions to local community 
problems. Further, this assistance and allocation of resources within the 
region can be effective only in the context of national policies that are 
effective in assisting the family farm, that are effective in accomplishing 
energy conservation on a national basis, and that are effective in developing 
renewable energy resources. 

MR. JENSEN: Okay. No. 4. Bring your cards in, please. 

II - 43 

TABLE 4: We think the question is too general for a specific answer because 
we don't agree with a yes or no answer. 

MR. JENSEN: This is the most specific question we have had all morning. ] 

Worst first or best first? | 

TABLE 4: We said you have to have a little bit of both of them. 
MR. JENSEN: Have you some academic people at your table? 
TABLE 4: I don't think you can go with just worst first. 

MR. JENSEN: Your point is well taken. | 


TABLE 4: You can't go with worst first. If you're going to do the best, you I 
have to concentrate on some of the serious problems you have because you have i 
small pockets of private employment, and if you want to address the best area ■*, 

MR. JENSEN: You're saying you have to do a little bit of both, but you 
cannot emphasize the worst first? 

TABLE 4: That's right. | 

MR. JENSEN: The answer to this is that you must do some of both, but cannot 
emphasize the worst first. 

TABLE 5: Our group, by a divided vote, said that the best first with the 
thought that by stimulating your assets, it would be possible to analyze 
what your worst problems were and assist those areas. 

MR. JENSEN: Very good. 

TABLE 5: To maximize the strengths. 

MR. JENSEN: All right. Next. 

TABLE 6: As usual, we were divided down the middle, but I guess our 
consensus would be it's not a black and white situation. There is soiie 
agreement that you should attack problems first. 

MR. JENSEN: Did you vote? 

TABLE 6: There was no way to vote. 

MR. JENSEN: You vote by everybody putting their hands up. 

TABLE 6: Some raised the best first, some the worst first, so some of 

MR. JENSEN: Did you actually vote? 

TABLE 6: No, we didn't. 

II - 44 

MR. JENSEN: Would you take a vote? We will go to the next table. 

TABLE 7: I think there are towns that might be dying and there's a factor 
that we are interdependent. You can't simply take the worst or the best. 
There's a relationship that exists. So the statement is this: Concentrate 
on those which have the most potential and desire, but don't let anyplace go 
down the tube. At that point we have two dissenting votes in our group, 
and I think the dissenters would say development does mean change; you can't 
stand still and have it both ways each time. 

TABLE 8: The consensus of our groups was a middle position. The maintenance 
needs should not be overlooked; but, perhaps to be most effective, funds 
should come to the state to respond to worst cases. Reasonable focus should 
be on areas of greatest promise. 

MR. JENSEN: Okay. Have you voted? 

TABLE 6: No. Yes. We have a consensus for attacking the best first. 

MR. JENSEN: There we go. One more. Do you have a report? 

TABLE 9: Yes. We could not come to a consensus, so we are going to give 
two minority reports. 

MR. JENSEN: All right. Which is more minority than the other? 

TABLE 9: It was two to two with one abstaining. Why don't you go ahead. 

I guess I go by your program here, that once prosperous is now 
growing more slowly, and I define agriculture as that. So family farm and 
agriculture, as a sound base for the region, should be made more prosperous 
as it will benefit all the region and it will have fallout to all segments 
of the economy. 

MR. JENSEN: What's the other report? 

TABLE 9: I don't think we are really a minority. I think my only contention 
is that that's an excellent idea, and I think the idea should be broadened to 
all rotating resources to foster the development of not only agriculture but 
other kinds of rational, desirable economic growth, small business, appropriate 
technology, related kinds of activities. I think all of those have a trickle- 
down effect of their own which will benefit the entire region, so I simply opt 
for a broader range for allocation of resources to a broader range of interests 
for the purposes of broadening what I would call an acceptable kind of growth. 

MR. JENSEN: I guess if you include agriculture as a promising area, then it 
becomes a promising report, the best report. 

TABLE 9: Yes. Now may we give a third minority report? 

MR. JENSEN: No. We haven't time. Our consensus probably is to go where 
there's the most opportunity for improvement. 



QUESTION: Should we concentrate our limited resources of funds, time and 
people in the areas where there is the most opportunity or in 
the locations where the disadvantages are the greatest? 

Worst first with worst being small family farms, small rural communities 
adversely impacted by rural out -migration and loss of family farm popu- 
lation. Work with local people to help them organize for community planning 
and development and organize for working cooperatively with other communities 
in the same area for extended area community planning and development. 

Go to potential area first -- with desire . 

Worse - "Hold pattern only" -- possible for adoptive actions. 

Analyze why communities are weak. It may be that given a proper program, 
a worst community can grow. 1 would give priorities to worst. 

1. Define worst. 

2. Simultaneous attack -- more emphasis on worst; assuming that areas 
that are developing have a certain momentum already and do not need 
immediate help. 

1. Priority to problems tha; have greatest potential, 

2. Then to problems that aro solvent. 

Obtain the potential of area; that do have some promise but be mindful 
of problem areas dependent oi what is determined to be the worst or 

Most resources to potential g 'owth areas -- cannot ignore worst. 

There should bo concern with the "worst areas," however, this shouldn't 
preclude concern with promising areas in the region. 

Growth center strategy. 

II - 46 

Obviously both, probably 50/50. It's unreasonable to put all resources 
for a 5% improvement in a weak area where resources will create 50% 
improvement . 

To the top if it would feed the bottom, or to the bottom if the top has 
the momentum. 

1. Should begin to address first the most severe human and economic prob- 
lems within the region with our limited resources. 

2. Then direct attention to widely depressed needs. 

3. Alleviation of resources within region can be effective only in 
context of effective family farm policies, renewable energy possibili- 
ties and energy conservation. 

High unemployment area should be worked on for stimulus of small local 


The worst problem should be viewed first as they will continue to 

breed more problems. 

An area of promise can usually help itself. 

Attack worst first with the development of employment programs that have 
legitimate promise. 

Concentrate on those with most potential and positive attitude, i. e. , 
distressed areas with identifiable potential for development should be 
aided to the greatest degree. 

Equalize rates of economic growth through diversification -- identify 

communities' potential with high unemployment, a) build economic 

base (jobs); b) provide service for the area; c) citizens' desires, 


Strategy -- dying towns? 

Interdependence - basic (two tied together - 50/50) . 

Best - easiest, best prospects for return. 

- most logical. 

- demonstration for worst. 

- path to follow for worst. 

Support where there is promise, assuming economic development, not welfare. 

II - 47 

I favor development in area that is favorable to progress and economic 
return in that it helps another area as well. 

Take economic development where the action is. 

Welfare to worst areas, but not the development resources. 

Best first. Compromise: improve worst social injustice first. 

Put limited resources on your winners first; then work on other 
problems later. 

Determine where growth forces are coming from; don't use scarce resources 
where there is relatively less need. The question is improperly put. 

I believe that we should address worst first. 

Yes, to to the worst first. Take care of the unemployed first. 

Begin with the worst. 

Development and growth as a result are the main concerns based on ] 

economics; therefore, development of more promising areas to the best utili- \ 

zation will probably result in the best utilization of resources and better \ 

development, J 

Best. Must be feasible with total cost or efficiency concept. 

Best. Those that show promise may solve worst, too. 

I recommend putting jjreatest effort towards best opportunities. 

Best or most promising. 


n - 48 i 

Many times the worst situation is beyond saving, but some effort needs to be 
put forth to stimulate, i. e. , a depressed community or area -- we need to 
channel resources to the areas of greatest promise. 

Family farm agriculture, as a sound base for the region, should be made 
more prosperous as it will benefit all people. 

Both, but new directions must be explored, i. e., appropriate or soft (mid) 
technology - economics as if people mattered. 

There needs to be a balancing of use of resources 

Positive growth requires that potential for best be identifed to encourage 
proper attitudes and posture for public involvement and to broaden the 
base for diverse approaches which accommodate communities. 

Both should be looked at on equal basis. 

Must go to the source, but Governor, House and Senate will demand that 
development must begin where each community is. No one will allow 
themselves to be left out. 



Since economic development activities are not welfare programs, put 
dollars where development is feasible -- at the same time consider geo- 
graphic distribution to minimize societal displacement. 

Attack first problems which can reasonably assume to be resolved; 
solution not that black or white; must consider political realities. 

Worst - 3; Best 6. 

11 - 49 

Worst or Best first? 6 to 1 in favor of best. 

Worst is defined as - high unemployment, economic stagnation, low 

Comments: 1. Maximize resources. 

2. Analyze worst - why? - maybe programs available. 

3. Go to strengths. 

Question is too general for a specific answer; response depends on the 
specific issue that a community has and a decision must be made on that 
specific issue. 

\ddress worst problem first, those areas being depressed family farms, rural 
communities, and Indian reservations, with assistance to local communities 
to solve local problems. These can be effective only with national programs 
for strengthening family farm, national energy considerations, commitment 
to renewable energy sources. 

We need a viable economic development program with wise treatment of 
presently existing businesses and agriculture, as well as imported new 
businesses, with careful consideration being given in all cases to th3 
environmental and social effects on the quality of life we all desire. 

Concentrate on those with most potential and desire, but not let anyj lace 
go down the tubes. Two dessenters. Development means change, not status 
quo. Can't have both ways. 

II - 50 

MR. JENSEN: Our next question is: Where are disparities of economic 
opportunity -- particularly employment -- should Federal, Regional and 
State policy encourage moving people to where jobs exist or move employ- 
ment opportunities to where people live? 

Let's assume we have opportunities for employment for the most part. To 
some extent we are talking about opportunities for human development and 
living, but in a sense we are still talking about economic opportunities 
for employment. In your Study Guide, this is D and E on pages 4 and 5 of 
Theme One. The idea is: Are we going to take jobs and opportunities to 
places where there's unemployment and improve housing or employment oppor- 
tunities, or is it more sensible to try to move some people to where there 
are opportunities, particularly developing areas, because of the developing 
of energy resources. 

FROM THE FLOOR: To make it short, it's either people to opportunities or 
opportunities to people? 

MR. JENSEN: That's correct. 

We are going to begin taking the reports now. I declare this Table No. 1 
because they have been ready three times out of four. By proclamation, 
you are Table No. 1. 

TABLE 1: Mr. Chairman, unfortunately, we could not come to a consensus, 
and we have four different ways: people to opportunities, three; opportuni- 
ties to people, three; no vote, one; both, one. And I cannot make a sum- 
marizing statement. 

MR. JENSEN: I would like to say that was a very bad job on your part, and 
I'm tempted to take away your No. 1 designation. 

TABLE 1: Here's what it is. Where possible, for balanced regional develop- 
ment, move the opportunities to people. 

MR. JENSEN: Okay. Who wants to report? 

TABLE 2: Generally, it's best to bring resources to people -- sound 
and economical -- the way people want it. 

MR. JENSEN: Next. 

TABLE 3: The consensus is that where it is feasible, you should direct 
the people to where the jobs are located; but you must keep in mind the phy- 
sical and social restraints and characteristics of those people and the 
capacity of the receiving locality to absorb them. 

MR. JENSEN: That's a good statement. Who is next? 

TABLE 4: Our committee said, four -- the jobs should be moved to the 
community; two -- both, based on a priority basis; and one -- move people 
to job site. 

II - 51 

TABLE 5: Our group believed that there should be a cominitment to develop 
economic opportunities where people live to try to preserve the local 
culture. We do not believe that we should create jobs in any local area to 
import largo groups or large numbers of people into an area, and that there 
should be an emphasis on self-employment opportunities, community develop- 
ment corporations, and local businesses. 

MR. JENSEN: Next. 

TABLE 6: Our group approached it with the philosophy that there are three 
possibilities: One, jobs to people; two, people to jobs; and the thi:^d, 
of course, a mix of these two based upon special circumstances. The vote 
was four in favor of the mix, three in favor of maximizing available natural 
resources and taking the people to the jobs. 

MR. JENSEN: Next. 

TABLE 7: Our consensus at this table was to take opportunities to the 
people, but only if the people want them, and this should be focused on 
regions such as Indian Reservations, this type of thing. However, only if . 
taking of those opportunities to the people is more economical and has less 
social effects than bringing the people to the jobs. 

MR. JENSEN: Very good. Next. 

TABLE 8 : One idea that came out of our group was to promote the concept 
of the regional communities, strengthen the region, if possible, by "region." 
I'm talking about a multi-county community. Provide opportunity to move, but 
also assist those who wish to remain. 

MR. JENSEN: One group hasn't reported. 

TABLE 9: I guess I'm the culprit. I'm not sure what we have this time. I 
think we said that the answer depends on whether you are talking about a \ 
regional or national basis. 

MR. JENSEN: We're talking regional. ^ 

TABLE 9: Then I think if we are talking about a regional basis, the tendency 
would be for letting people move to the jobs or taking people to the jobs, 
but there's considerable confusion about the fact that oftentimes there's 
going to be a mix and should be. 

MR. JENSEN: 1 think there's a little tendency to take the resources to 
the jobs, but it's pretty mixed. Obviously, it would be much easier to 
answer the question if you took an example and said you have certain oppor- j 
tunities here and you have to move people a hundred miles and there are 
good schools there. It's hard to answer. We understand that. Be sure to 
turn in your cards. You have been a very good working buzz group. You have \ 
buzzed good, worked good, followed instructions in a super way. I appreciate ' 
that very much. I'm sure it's been helpful to the Commission. Report to your 
next group at two o'clock in one of these three rooms. Thank you very much. 

II - 52 


QUESTION #4: Where there are disparities of economic opportunity -- 
particularly employment -- should Federal, Regional and 
State policy encourage moving people to where jobs exist 
or move employment opportunities to where people live? 

Should be a mix. 

Federally created jobs to be taken to the people unless dictated by a 
resource or need. 

It depends on the relative costs -- probably end up with a mix of both 

Depends too much on other considerations for a simple yes or no answer in 
general. Most likely cases where both should be used. 

Jobs to people. 

Each individual situation must be taken into consideration. It is highly 
more acceptable to bring jobs to the people, unless it is not economically 

Economic development should focus upon "places" -- especially Indian 
Reservations . Some people do not want federal economic development. 

1. People to job to be economically sound. 

2. Jobs to people if area is productive. 

Opportunity to people; people to opportunity. Balance or mix. 

Yes to people doing something about problem. The key words in the question 
are "places attempting" with emphasis on the work being done. This is, how- 
ever, not a black-white issue and again efforts at facilitating movement of 
people to jobs cannot be ignored. 

II - 53 

Jobs should be induced at place or location -- actually a mix. 

Jobs to the people. 

Opportunities to where the people want to live -- which is probably where 
they are - so - opportunities to people. Let peple move to the opportun- 
ties if they choose to only -- no programs other than information and 

People to jobs where possible. 

People to jobs -- money spent on mobility. Maximize the resources of an 
area and its people -- funding jobs in areas that are not economically 
strong, the effect will be to support stagnation. 

Take jobs to people being realistic with compatible industry or work. 

We need to work with individual communities to identify their needs and 
resources and help open up opportunities for self-employment and develop- 
ment, community development, corporations to provide local goods and 
employment and help small businesses become established. 

Areas of unemployment should be identified and the necessary programs 
should be set up to help them take care of their local job problems/or 
the people now living in the area. The emphasis should not be on creating 
jobs/or new people. 

- Community development where people now live to preserve local 

Growth of existing communities through stimulation of local business 
and economic opportunity. 

Federal policies should attempt to develop economic opportunities in the 
places that people prefer to live -- a strong residential preference policy 
should be adopted. 

Develop economic opportuiity where people live to preserve local culture. 

JI - 54 

Move resources to people but only where consistent with sound economics 
and local needs and desires. 

Bring jobs to areas of high unemployment? In some cases yes; rarely should 
you move people to jobs. Residential preference policy? No. 

Reclocation almost never works - so usually the target should be places 
(jobs to people) . 

Violates opportunity to relocate if specifi: jobs unavailable. 

People will move to where job opportunities develop. 

Appropriate private role should be to allow employment to seek its own 
balance in areas because of social requirements. Should be provided 
through federal assistance to "places." 

If economically feasible, take jobs to people; otherwise, the people 
have to accept moving to where there are available jobs. 

It is not possible to bring jobs to where people live. People should be 
relocated to places where jobs exist. 

States must have the option, i . e , an export policy for coal may be .in 
appropriate mechanism in Montana, Wyoming and North Dakota. Mining pro- 
vides enough jobs without power generation, too. Power generation should 
go where water, labor force and need for power exists. 

Jobs to people for greater regional balance. 

People to opportunity. 

Jobs to people is Ideal, but we are too late -- not completely possible. 

II - 55 


Bring people to opportunity. 

Develop the job opportunities and the people will find them. 

Both. There is a desirability to preserve families; thus it is desirable 
to bring jobs to people; however, location theory teaches that jobs 
will be created where markets, raw material and a labor force are found 
in proximity--ergo, jobs go where economic and people to jobs -- since 
people are more mobile. 

Where possible for balanced regional development, move the opportunities 
to people. 


Take opportunities to the people (only if the people want them) and 
should be focused on regions (Indian Reservations); however, this should 
only be done if it is more economically and socially feasible over moving 
people to opportunities. 

Consensus: People to jobs - 3; mixed approach - 4. 

1. To maximize resources, people are going to have to go to jobs. 

2. Resources where most benefit -- taking people to job best. 

3. Go to place indicated by resource or need. 

4. Mix of both approaches. 

Generally, it is better to move resources to people if it is sound 
economically and provided the people want it. 

Favor concept of area job development within state. People have choice 
of area they wish to live in and support. To a degree, jobs to community, 
with qualifications! 

Direct people to jobs where feasiable, but must consider social and phys- 
ical characteristics of people and capacity of receiving locality to 
absorb new people. 

Develop opportunities where people live - preserve local culture - do not 
create jobs to bring large groups into area - emphasis on self -employment, 
community development corporations and cooperatives and local businesses. 

II - 56 



Leaders : 

James L. Grahl 

General Manager 

Basin Electric Power Cooperative 

Bismarck, North Dakota 

Jerry D. Plunkett 

Managing Director 

Montana Energy and MHD Research 

and Development Institute 

Butte, Montana 

David R. Brown 

Deputy Director 

Montana Energy and MHD Research 

and Development Institute 

Butte, Montana 

II - 57 

MR. GRAHL: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Jim Grahl of 
Basin Electric Power Cooperative. We are headquartered here in Bismarck. 
The Cooperative supplies power to rural electric cooperatives throughout 
the region, which is the subject of study at this conference. 

I would like to welcome you to this workshop. It is on a subject that 
warrants the attention and consideration of all of us. As you know, the 
main topic for discussion at this workshop is that of creating employ- 
ment opportunities. I have taken the liberty of breaking down this sub- 
ject into four subtopics in order that we can consider them in a produc- 
tive manner and give direction to the Old West Regional Commission in the 
most meaningful manner possible, given the short time that we have and 
the size and scope of the subject. 

The four subtopics are -- and not in order of importance -- one, capital 
financing for development; two, adequate and stable farm income; three, 
agricultural and energy development; and, four, employment opportunities 
for minorities. 

The cochairman of this workshop is Mr. Jerry Plunkett. He and I have 
been asked to make a few remarks in terms of background before the people 
in the workshop become involved in the considerations of these topics. 
For the most part, these five states are an agricultural region. It is, 
as we all know, one of the great food-producing areas of the world. Con- 
sequently, the economy of the region and job opportunities are heavily 
affected by agriculture. When we have good weather, good crops 
and good prices, the regional economy is prosperous. When crops are 
poor or prices are low for farm products, the regional economy suffers. 
So, the region, one might say, has a somewhat fragile economy, depending 
as it does on the weather and farm prices, neither of which is subject 
to the control of the people who live in the region. These factors are 
not even very predictable. In some states in the region, even when the 
economy is only moderately good or average, unemployment figures tend :to 
be low. 

We should not let low unemployment figures mislead us or mislead the 
Federal agencies charged with administering employment programs, because 
this region tends to export its young people and other people who are 
looking for jobs and cannot find them. We export, therefore, much of 
our unemployment. People from this region go elsewhere in search of jobs, 
but it is much less common for people from other regions and the big cities 
to migrate to this region looking for a job. However, we all know low 
unemployment rates are not universally the case in the region. For ex- 
ample, in Montana, or parts of Montana, and in urban Nebraska, there 
apparently is considerable unemployment among the minority groups, includ- 
ing people of Indian and Mexican descent. There is serious unemployment 
in particular areas. Therefore, considering the out-migration of people 
seeking jobs because they cannot find them here and the serious numbers 
of unemployed people in areas of the region, this five-state region does 
need more jobs for the people who live here or who would like to live 

II - 58 

The region does have substantial resources in terms of capable people, 
educational institutions, lands, water and minerals. Substantial economic 
development could take place with the creation of a substantial number of 
additional jobs. The development of these resources requires heavy capital 
investment in a region where capital is in short supply. There are other 
problems to be addressed. The purpose of this workshop is to propose 
ideas as to how these problems might be solved. With those remarks, I 
would like to introduce the Cochairman of this workshop, Mr. Jerry 
Plunkett. He is Executive Director of tlie MHD Institute; that is, 
Magneto-Hydro-Dynaraics Institute of Butte, Montana. Mr. Plunkett. 

DR. PLUNKETT: Thank you very much, Jim. I would like to say just a few 
words about economic development, particularly employment. First of all, 
I think it is important for everyone to realize that we are seeing the 
development of regions as viable notions or ideas to address problems. 
Now, I realize that, historically, the configuration of the political 
system of the United States was the states and then the national govern- 
ment. However, we have seen in recent years the development of the notion 
that special regions may be established to address specific problems. 
The regionalization notion, 1 think, is really very likely to increase in 
the future, particularly as we address energy problems. 

This is not a new idea. For example, the organization Jim works with, 
the Basin Electric organization, is essentially a regional organization, 
as is Bonneville Power Administration and, of course, the Tennessee 
Valley Authority. The notion that states have common interests and can 
join together to solve common problems is not new, but I think we will 
see it take on a new vitality. There arc simply too many states. There 
are fifty of them, and they are dealing with the federal government. It 
becomes a complicated business. On the other hand, the utilization of 
the regional notion may be an important addition to the discussion, 
debate and the problem-solving that we need for the future. 

First of all, the Old West Region, I think, is a resource region. There 
are two great traditions here: agriculture, which Jim has mentioned, and 
the extractive industry of mining which has not a stable character but 
more of a boom and bust. Agriculture does have a variability in economic 
input to the region from year to year. On the other hand, it has survived 
for a hundred years. Therefore, it has a kind of long-term stability which 
we do not find in the mining industry. For example, I come to you today 
from Butte, Montana; and we know the copper industry there is in very 
serious trouble. It's no longer making the contribution to that community, 
to the nation or to the region that it did at one time. The fact of the 
matter is that from that one city has been extracted sixteen billion 
dollars worth of copper which, in effect, built the electrical industry in 
the early days of the United States. Yet, the community may disappear if 
we cannot address the kinds of problems that are raised in the develop- 
ment and the death of the resource, extractive industry. 

Therefore, I would urge you to take the longer range point of view, simply 
not worry about employment today or tomorrow, but realize that a conference 
of this sort must have a perspective and it must have some vision if it's 

II - 59 

going to be of any great utility. The other thing is that I think I 
would like to see this group address employment in terms of the oppor- 
tunities, new opportunities, from a systems point or overview; that is, we 
must consider regional problems not in isolation. For example, one of 
the great problems is the production and opportunities of production of 
coal. The movement or transportation of coal out of this region, since 
it by and large will not be used here, is an important decision. And it 
has consequences. 

The decision that we make as to the transportation system can affect 
other parts of the regional economy. For example, if railroads are picked 
versus pipelines, the increase in the utilization of capacity of the rail- 
roads may result in a net cost increase for transportation of agricultural 
products. This may be a secondary fallout, if you will, from this basic 
decision, which is to move energy. On the other hand, it may affect very 
directly and dramatically the profits in another industry. Therefore, I 
think we must not look at decisions in isolation but take a more whole- 
listic point of view. The third thing is to consider any activities which 
we recommend, not only from, again, the initial or primary purpose, but 
from the secondary point of view with regard to -- Does it have flexibility 
about it? 

Again, take the analogy of the railroads and the pipeline system. Once 
a pipeline coal transportation system is in place, the employment generated 
by that is fixed. Depending on where the input and the output and the 
pumping stations are, determines employment. On the other hand, the rail- 
roads may be a flexible system. They buy, use and wear and repair railway 
cars. Those can be done at various areas. You don't necessarily have to 
repair a railroad car in Billings, Montana, or in Kansas City or Minneapolis. 
It could be done in Butte, Montana, or it could be done in North Dakota. 
There is a discretion about where the economic activity is to be generated, 
I think we must look at the various economic activities which we recommend 
from the point of view of the inherent flexibility that we have. Is it 
discretionary or is it not discretionary? If you have discretionary capa- 
bilities or economic activities, then you have a lever to get hold of to 
actually plan and develop the region. And you have some control over it. 
With those very general comments, we will proceed with the meeting. 

MR. GRAHL: My principal responsibility is to explain how this workshop is 
to be conducted. It is to use a process of idea development and group 
consensus which is called the Phillip 66 Technique adapted for needs of 
this workshop. I will outline how it is supposed to work. 

First, let me say there is nothing democratic about deciding how this 
workshop is going to work. We have been told how it's going to work, so 
you will have to accept that, I guess. The way the process is to work 
is that each table is to elect a chairman. You are going to be given fif- 
teen seconds to do that, so there is not much time for campaigning. A 
recording secretary will be selected at each table, and then we will take 
the first subtopic at each table. There are cards called "idea cards." 
Each person is to write down what, in his opinion, is the best idea with | 
respect to the particular subtopic. The table will have a few minutes 

II - 60 


to discuss things and to vote on what they think is the best idea at their 
table. Then we will list the best ideas -- one from each table -- on the 
board, and go on to the next subtopic. That is the general way that this 
is to work. 

The purpose of it is not to discourage participation, but it's a method 
which is supposed to give every person in the room an opportunity to express 
ideas about these topics and do it in a very short time. If that's clear, 
we should get started. I would like eacli each table, within the next 
fifteen seconds, to select a chairman or chairwoman -- excuse me, chair- 
person, I guess one should say. Let's start with the table to my left. 
Will the person at this table stand up and please give your name? 

MS. ANNE CAMPBELL: I am Anne Campbell from Nebraska. 

MR. GRAHL: I couldn't hear your name. 

MS. CAMPBELL: Anne Campbell. 

MR. GRAHL: Anne Campbell from Nebraska. The next table, please. 

MR. WIN STOERKER: Win Stoerker, Bismarck, North Dakota. 

MR. GRAHL: Win Stoerker, Bismarck, North Dakota. The next table. 

MR. BRUCE BARTSCH: Bruce Bartsch, Bismarck. 

MR. GRAHL: The next table, please. 

MS. PATRICIA CLARK: Patricia Clark, Spearfish, South Dakota. 

MR. GRAHL: Patricia Clark, Spearfish, South Dakota. 

MR. JIM GERL: Jim Gerl, from North Dakota. 

MR. GRAHL: Jim Gerl, Mandan, North Dakota. This table in the center, 

MR. CHAUNCY KEPFORD: Chauncy Kepford, Jackson, Wyoming. 

MR. GRAHL: Chauncy Kepford. This table. 

MR. BRYAN NELSON: Bryan Nelson, Cheyenne, Wyoming. 

MR. GRAHL: Bryan Nelson, Cheyenne, Wyoming. Next table right back here. 

MS. AILSA SIMONSON: Ailsa Simonson, Bismarck. 

MR. GRAHL: Ailsa Simonson, Bismarck, North Dakota. And the table to the 

MS. BONNIE BANKS: Bonnie Banks, Bismarck, North Dakota. 

II -61 

MR. GRAHL: Bonnie Banks, Bismarck, North Dakota. 

The chairpersons have certain responsibilities. Your first responsibility 
is to appoint a reporting secretary at your table, and you are supposed to 
do that right now. 

Will each of the reporting secretaries raise your hands so that we can see 
that we have one at every table. 

All right. Thank you. On each table there should be idea cards. If the 
chairman will distribute one card to each person at your table and write 
in the first subtopic at the top of the cards. The title of of the topic is, ; 
"Capital financing for development." What would be some ideas of obtaining \ 
capital financing for development? Each person should write on the card 
your ideas of what is a good way or the best way to provide for capital \ 
financing. It's desirable to be specific. If you can write in headlines, 
it's also desirable -- just a few words. You are being given all of five 
minutes to do this. 

During the next twelve minutes, the chairman should get everybody at the 
table to state ideas. The recording secretary will record them. Before 
the end of twelve minutes -- and the instructions say at the end of eleven 
minutes -- each table should take a vote on what it regards as the best 
idea, or the most helpful, in respect to this particular subtopic. This 
does not mean that the other ideas are bad. I will repeat the instructions. 
Within the next twelve minutes, each table is to consider the ideas of 
each person at the table and to vote on what is the best single idea with 
respect to this particular subtopic. We will have to move on to the next 
topic, so would you please conclude your discussions and select what you 
regard as the best idea. 

Bruce Bartsch, would you stand and tell us briefly what your table concluded? 

MR. BARTSCH: U. S. Treasury Department liberalization of current limitations 
placed on maximum allowable amount of industry bond issue -- that limit 
should be raised from five to ten million dollars. 

MR. GRAHL: Let me see if I understood that. The amount of individual 
industrial development bond issues be liberalized to ten million dollars 
per issue? 

MR. BARTSCH: From the current five million dollars. 

MR. GRAHL: From the current five million dollars. So we might put that 
on the board as "Raising the ceiling on industrial development bond issues 
to ten million dollars." 

What about the table right here? 

MR. WIN STOERKER: A. Government guarantees for public services with 
local input. B. Community approval for revenue bonds to augment private 
capital for private industry. 

II - 62 

MR. GRAHL: Government guarantees to -- 

MR. STOERKER: Government guarantees for public services with local 
input . 

MR. GRAHL: With local input. 

MR. STOERKER: And B. would be community approval for revenue bonds to 
augment private capital for private industry. 

MR. GRAHL: All right. In sort of a shorthand way -- 1 should introduce 
the gentleman who is putting these on the board. He is David Brown from 
the MHD Institute in Butte, Montana. I think these are both good ideas. 
Government guarantees for public services and community approval for re- 
venue bonds to augment capital for private industry. 

Is your table prepared? 

MR. BRYAN NELSON: Wc don't have a well-prepared statement, so shall we 
say we have a few ideas? 

MR. GRAHL: Are you the chairman? Could you state your name again for us? 

MR. NELSON: Bryan Nelson. We are not prepared yet. We have four items 
we have to narrow down to one. 

MR. GRAHL: All right. How about this table over here? Would you give 
us your name again, please. 

MS. CAMPBELL: I am Anne Campbell from Nebraska. 

MR. GRAHL: Anne Campbell? 

MS. CAMPBELL: C-a-m-p-b-e-1-1, Campbell, just like in Campbell soup. 

This table really did not come to a consensus. We have two ideas. One 
is, let nature take its course in the free enterprise system. The 
second is to create a public corporation along the line of the Tennessee 
Valley Authority and call it the Missouri Valley Authority. I think the 
question becomes who makes the decision. That's really the question in 
capital financing. 

MR. GRAHL: Well, we will put both ideas down. If I understand it 
correctly, one would be, "Depend on private enterprise."? 

MS. CAMPBELL: Free market. 

MR. GRAHL: And, second, a public corporation, such as the Missouri Valley 
Authority. Is the table in the back ready? This is Chairman Jim Gerl. 

MR. GERL: Not to be confused with Jim Grahl. Our table came up with a 
consensus that we establish a regional development banking institution 

II - 63 

similar to the Bank of North Dakota. It would function like a regional 
SBA and be funded like the import -export bank through aid to private 

MR. GRAHL: How would it be funded? 

MR. GERL: Like the import-export bank. The states would pool their 
money into this regional bank. 

MR. GRAHL: So it would be a regional development bank, funded with state 

MR. GERL: Correct. 

MR. GRAHL: Very good. How about the table in the comer? And would you 
state your name, please? 

MS, BANKS: Bonnie Banks. 

MR. GRAHL: Bonnie Banks. 

MS. BANKS: We came up with a mix of financial opportunities. The reason 
we did is because there is some question regarding the size of the develop- 
ment that we're talking about. The consensus developed four different 
major funding sources that would be useful. There should be a mix of 
those four: direct federal subsidy, loan guarantee, private sector, and 
redistribution of the tax base, as far as input and the output. 

MR. GRAHL: A mix. That table, if I understand it correctly, suggests a 
mix of federal subsidies. Would it be federal loan guarantees, Ms. Banks? 

MS. BANKS: We would be talking about direct federal subsidy as well as 
loan guarantees. 

MR. GRAHL: Federal loan guarantees? 

MS BANKS: That's right. 

MR. GRAHL: And private sector capital and redistribution of the tax 
base, both the assessment of taxes and the distribution of tax revenues? 
Is that correct? 

MS. BANKS: Yes. 

MR. GRAHL: I think at the next table Ms. Ailsa Simonson is the cha rperson. 

MS. SIMONSON: We agreed on one brilliant thought. That was to set aside a 
percentage of the severance tax for statewide economic development. 

MR. GRAHL: Percentage of severance tax for state development. 

And that table to my right. How are you set now? 

II - 64 

MR. NELSON: We came up with a lot of ideas, and I had a hard time center- 
ing in on one in that short of time. Several of them bear out what has 
been said already. We discussed several things. We tried to zero in on 
just methods of financing capital. However, it quickly spread into other 
areas; and we didn't come to any general consensus, other than we had a 
lot of ideas. Maybe I could review those. One was liberalizing of tax 
incentives, which is always a good way to get the private sector to come 
out with some cash. Another one is liberalize revenue bonding, which we 
think is a good one. We also talked about decreasing amortization time 
on certain type projects, especially those which would be related to an 
area which would have high unemployment or specific problems which have 
been identified. Another one is that we thought that the capital financing 
should go for labor intensive-type jobs rather than high capital intensive- 
type expansions. Another good comment that I think is an excellent idea -- 
1 am not sure how we bring it in -- but it said income of capital should be 
equal to the outgo of resources from the region. If we could win that one, 
we would have a deal going for us. 

MR. GRAHL: Do you have those, Dave? Very quickly. A combination of 
tax incentives, revenue bond financing for private industry, I assume, 
rapid depreciation, particularly in areas of severe unemployment, a finan- 
cing channel towards labor intensive projects and then an effort to balance 
the input of capital, with the outgo of resources. Is that a fair resume? 

MR. NELSON: Excellent. 

MR. GRAHL: Thank you all very much. Now, we have another subtopic. 

MR. KEPFORD: You missed us. 

MR. GRAHL: Excuse me. What is your name, please? 

MR. KEPFORD: Chauncy Kepford, Wyoming. We came up with a two-part 
proposal -- to identify the need for capital investments in particular; 
and to identify local sources of public and private money for these needs. 
And I guess a third idea would be some method of keeping the profits in 
the region. 

MR. GRAHL: All right. First, to identify the needs for capital; second, 
to identify local sources of capital, both private and public; and third, 
to keep the profits from such industries in the region. 

Let's see -- is there one more table? Please state your name. 

MS. CLARK: Pat Clark. Our consensus at this table is almost identical 
with that first statement which was raising that ceiling from five million 
dollars to at least ten million dollars. 

MR. GRAHL: All right. That's the matter of increasing the limit on 
individual industrial development bonds from five million dollars to ten 
million dollars per project. 

II - 65 

MS. CLARK: At least ten million dollars. 

MR. GRAHL: At least ten million dollars. 

All right. Now, I think all the tables have been heard from. Incidentally, 
we would like the chairpersons to collect the idea cards and keep them with 
your notes. As 1 understand it, these cards and notes are to be turned in 
to this table. 

II - 66 


SUBTOPIC: Capital Financing and Development 

In order to generate and utilize local/regional input, develop a plan 
for selling stock toward capital gains in newly-formed corporation -- 
with possible monies from outside interest being used. 

Federal guarantee to provide job training and placement of those who 
need financial help, such as the handicapped -- jobs that are actually 
available in the region. 

Revenue bond passed by the community involved to be paid off by the 
community through development. 

Regional banking facilities similar to State Bank of North Dakota -- 
with input and monitoring from business, labor, farming -- for smaller 
business that meets environmental laws. 

A Regional Industrial Bank. 

Regional Development Bank, similar to Bank of North Dakota which could 
aid private enterprise. 

Greater use of Ind. Revenue Bonds. 

1. Loan Participation; development bank and local bank. 
Similar to S.B.A. 

2. Development Bank for Region. 

3. Industrial Bonds. 

Federally backed or guaranteed loans to private industry for specific 
projects with desirable regional employment impacts. The greater the 
desirable impact, the greater the loan. Can be handled through EDA, 
HUD, HEW, DOT, DOE, Interior, USDA, and other appropriate agencies. 

II - 67 

1. Eliminate double taxation of corporate income. 

2. Expand tax credit for investment in new plant and equipment. 

3. Reduce state and local taxation of expansion or new enterprises 
releasing this capital for repayment. 

4. Loan guarantee and subsidy of interest rates. 

5. Raise the $5M limitation on Industrial Revenue Bonds. 

1. Lower interest on long term. 

2. Less speculation with more specific goal. 

Revenue bonding authority for both state government and local develop- | 

ment corporations. j 


Interest and/or tax credits to "desirable" industries (desirable determined 
by local communities), combined with additional ED funds and grants from 
the Feds with emphasis for equal distribution to rural areas. 

Local control and not to export the money far from the state. 

Development should include opportunities for rural areas and small 
communities -- with emphasis on projects which would involve and 
employ the locally unemployed or underemployed. 

1. Determine capital advantages and investment opportunities. 

2. Allocate portion of state revenue for venture capital, subject 
to local decision and direction. 

State or local development coop for use by local groups in identifying 
needs, identifying local capital available, with some financing by taxes 
on extractive industry. 

Expansion of the Industrial Development Revenue Bond program. Update 
this law. 

Regional development (energy for one) demands regional application of 
capital. Develop region-wide private and public coops for capital 

II - 68 

Expansion of cooperative practices between public and private agencies 
and businesses for development of local and regional industries. Also, 
awareness of rural. 

Assume capital will become available when a project that is feasible 
and declared needed is proposed. (Regional or state need is assumed 
to have been obtained.) 

Finance through severance tax system. 

Federal tax incentives for expanding and new businesses. 

Industrial revenue bonds (state and local) liberalized. 
- Each public/private operation set aside R/D funds. 

N. D. fights industrial development. 

Time limited tax incentives or low interest loans for private business 
for those projects that will directly result in significant and continued 
employment opportunities for other than minimum wage type jobs. 

Specific "set aside" of a percentage of Imdget, either public or private, 
for development type activities. 

Private section oriented -large/small 

- Attractive tax structure (incentives, e. g. , Southeast) 
1. D. compar. advantages - % return invest/rel. risk. 

SBA - available across nation -- current emphasis re minorities. 

Federal guantees for loans for large projects. State tax exemptions 
for industry. 

Federal government has S.B.A. in individual state. Lower requirements 

to small business to open up development. Utilize S.B.A. Bank. Guarantee 

loans and direct S.B.A. and Farm Administration Loans. 

Direct grants to provide jobs, not just training. 

II - 69 

Federal government -- low rate interests through Federal Reserve System 
for individual corporations for areas of high unemployment (tax credit). 

The private sector should be relied upon as much as possible. Guaranteed, 
low interest loans, made available through local banking and savings and 
loan institutions, should be stressed. 

Equal redistribution of tax base - public and private sector. 

Natural resource tax establishment. 

Public Priority system est. Regional allotments 

State assessments 
Affirmative action 
for distribution 

Having the private enterprise corporations locate in an area where we 
have employment and resources available. We have to develop and educate 
the people in each area affected (redistribution of tax base, low interest 
federal loans, tax structure, private sector - S.B.A. - minority). 
Federal loan guarantee. State tax exemption. 

Federal - variety of methods, including loan guarantee, direct subsidy, 
direct loans. 

A key variable in determining relative economic health of a county is 
the level of private capital investment. In 1976, 80% of all capital 
investment in the U. S. was made by units of government -- 20% by the 
private sector. 

We need to put less emphasis on capital intensive development and much 
more on specific labor intensive projects which might be financed by 
state guaranteed revenue bonding or by private capital within localized 
regions (intra- or interstate) with some backing from Rural Development 
loans (federal). 

The capital that comes to finance development comes from two basic areas: 

1. Corporations involved in the development through both taxes and com- 
munity revenue investment. 

2. General government structure (tax basis). 


Government -guaranteed bonds for infrastructure, private sector financing 
for direct industry-related capital needs. 

Investment tax incentive for new facilities or expansion. Then let private 
sector provide the capital. 

First a climate for encouraging capital financing must be established 
such as tax incentives, developed markets, etc. Then private investors 
should respond. If not sufficient capital, then federal and state can 
provide low interest loans for private industry. 

Mechan ism Cooperat ive 

Payback Short term 

Source Community/Federal 

Catalyst Regional Commission 

Feasibility of appropriate level of capitalization. 

Easing of government rules and regulations to obtaining needed develop- 
ment funds -- easing access to private and commercial funds -- lower 
interest rates for funds used for economic development. 

As much private as possible. Banks, stock issues, etc. However, 
in problem areas, low interest government financing not in highly 
competitive areas such as timber, oil, mining. 

Net earned income in the production of God-given, rare materials will 
put capital investment opportunities in private hands. 

Encourage capital investment by companies which currently extract 
capital and resources. Specifically, insurance companies and energy and 
mining interests. 

Area is purely exploitive in its development, i. e. , area produces and 
extracts at the command or direction of other areas of the Nation; 
therefore, necessary private capital is essentially determined elsewhere. 
Recommend the creation of a public corporation called the Missouri Valley 
Authority (MVAI on the TVA model, i. e. , dust off S.555 (1944) - Sen. 
Wheeler (Mont.) scheme. 

II - 71 

Federal funds available for development should be distributed to the 
states and let the state distribute the funds to the local communities 
under direction of the State Legislature or State agencies. 

Private, state and federal funds will be needed, but who will make the 

Industrial Revenue Bonds -- Increase the U. S. Treasury limit from $5 
to $10 million ceiling. 

Depend on private enterprise. 

U. S. Treasury Department liberalization of current limitation places 
the maximum allowable amount of an industrial revenue bond issue. This 
limit should be raised from $5 to $10 million. 

A. Government guarantees for public services with local input. 

B. Community approval for revenue bonds to augment private capital 
for private industry. 

Let nature take its course in free enterprise system. Create a public 
corporation, e. g. , Tennessee Valley Authority, but called Missouri 
Valley Authority. 

Regional Development Banking institution similar to Bank of North 

Dakota -- function like a Regional SBA and funded like the Import Export 

Bank -- to aid private business. 

Direct federal subsidy. 

Loan guarantee. 

Private Sector— tax incentive § SBA opportunities for minorities. 

Existing SBA/FHA. 

Redistribution of tax base. 

Percent of severance tax for Economic Development. 

Identify need and sources of capital investments; keep profits in region. 

JI - 7:: 

MR. GRAHL: Now, the next subtopic: Adequate and stable farm income. 

During the next twelve minutes, each person should write down your best 
ideas on how to assure an adequate and stable farm income. 

It's time to bring your discussion to a conclusion. Would each chair- 
person have your table vote on the best idea in respect to this subtopic. 

Anne Campbell, would you tell us the idea your table came up with? 

MS. CAMPBELL: Our idea for adequate and stable farm income is a federal 
commission to establish price floors, actual cost for natural resources 
for domestic use. 

MR. GRAHL: Federal commission to establish price floors for -- 

MS. CAMPBELL: Natural resources for domestic use. 

MR. GRAHL: By natural resources, do you mean farm products? 

MS. CAMPBELL: No. We are talking about across the board on what we 
have in the region. 

MR. GRAHL: Regional? 

MS. CAMPBELL: From the land. 

MR. GRAHL: For domestic use. In other words, the federal commission 
would establish price floors under not only farm products but all 
natural resources? 

MS. CAMPBELL: Yes. Based on actual cost. 

MR. GRAHL: Based on actual cost. I will leave it to Dave Brown to see 

if he can paraphrase that. This suggestion from this table was a 

federal commission to establish price floors based on cost for natural 
resources for domestic use. 

Win Stoerker, how about your table? 

MR. STOERKER: We have two points. First, federal recognition of the 
importance of agriculture as a major economic resource; and, second, 
we think we need the creation of area or regional agricultural policy 
and price control boards comprised of representatives from farm and ranch 

MR. GRAHL: They had two suggestions: Federal recognition of the importance 
of agriculture as a major economic resource and then, area or regional 
price control boards representing farm and ranch interests. 

MR. STOERKER: Jim, we need the word "policy" in there as well as "price 
controls." Regional policy and price control boards. 

II - 73 

MR. GRAHL: Regional policy. Okay. Bruce Bartsch. 

MR. BARTSCH: Suggested at this table is consideration of a supply manage- 
ment program with fixed reserves, both domestic and international, based 
on parity. 

MR. GRAHL: Supply management program with fixed domestic and international 
reserves -- it would be prices based on parity? 

MR. BARTSCH: Right. 

MR. GRAHL: Supply management program with fixed domestic and international 
reserves and prices based on parity. Patricia Clark, please. 

MS. CLARK: The consensus of our group was that there should be development 
of alternative uses for products produced, such as grain, et cetera. I 
think that could be accomjilished on a regional basis, setting up a regional 
experimental development center. 

MR. GRAHL: Ms. Clark, if I understand you correctly, the idea was develop- 
ment of alternative uses for farm products based on a regional development 

MS. CLARK: Yes. 

MR. GRAHL: Jim Gerl , would you like to give us your suggestions? 

MR, GERL: We have come up with three: Create a regional marketing office 
to establish long-range export contracts, curb agricultural imports and, 
again, help establish the family farm. 

MR. GRAHL: Could we paraphrase those as a regional export marketing office, 
curb agricultural imports -- and what was the third one? 

MR. GERL: Again, help establish the family farm. 

MR. GRAHL: Yes, establish the family farm. Bonnie Banks, please. 

MS. BANKS: Our group also identified the need for new products development.' 
We are also interested in encouraging local processing of farm products and 
review of the import-export laws. 

MR. GRAHL: The two additional ideas are local agricultural processing 
plants and review of import-export laws which relates to one of the earlier 
suggestions. Ailsa Simonson, please. 

MS. SIMONSON: It's fairly repetitious. One, encourage a regional marketing 
and processing of existing agricultural products; two, encourage new products 
or broader uses of the products we now have. 

MR. GRAHL: Yes, those tie in with earlier suggestions for regional marketing 
of farm products and encouraging new products, or the broader use of existing 
products. Chauncy Kepford, could you give us the conclusions of your table? 

II - 74 

MR. KEPFORD: Yes. We have a three-point plan. First, get an agreement 
between the U. S. and Canada for, essentially, price control for exports 
of grain -- stability in the world market; second, public management of 
product marketing for general distribution and; third, develop more 
research into agricultural uses of production, more innovative research, 
to cope with the rising costs of production. 

MR. GRAHL: Could you give me the first part of your second item, please? 

MR. KEPFORD: Public management of product marketing for general distri- 
bution. Another way of saying this would be -- more on a national basis. 

MR. GRAHL: Would that be Federal? 


MR. GRAHL: This table has suggested a U. S. - Canada agreement on prices 
for exported grain. Federal management of farm product marketing, and 
innovative research into agricultural costs of production. Bryan Nelson. 

MR. NELSON: Here again, we came up with a lot of ideas that are already 
on the board, but we have one that is a little different. We want to 
emphasize, though, that we think that the Federal recognition of the farm 
importance is very essential. The one we want to bring up is better 
farm management based upon changing trends, as far as the economy is con- 
cerned. Let's try to get this by being more effective from our land grant 
colleges or extension services and our county agents. The first one is 
already on the board. 

MR. GRAHL: The second one is better farm management, primarily through 
more effective work by the land grant colleges, the extension service. 

MR. NELSON: And your county agents. More or less an education program 
for the farmer, if he will accept it. 

MR. GRAHL: And management education program for the farmer. 

I think that the number of ideas and the variety and the quality of ideas 
are suprisingly good. To tell you the truth, I really didn't think this 
method would work, but I must say, it's surprisingly effective. I think 
you are all working very hard. 

II - 75 


SUBTOPIC: Adequate and stable farm income. 

Establish a realistic parity rate on feed grains and all crops that have 

a reasonable storage capability. Develop alternative uses of farm products. 

Organizing and uniting for 100% parity on products produced. 

1. Develop, with federal assistance, alternative uses for certain farm 
commodities, e. g., gasahol, methane. 

2. Regional R 5 D Center. 

Better organization of farmers - retention of corporate farming interests 
in the state. Improved foreign marketing. 

1. 100% parity. 

2. Irrigation through water of the Great Lakes of South Dakota. 

Sell what they raise. 

Government subsidy. 

Push for export to starving nations . 

Supply and demand. 

1. Small farmer should have government subsidy. 

2. Encourage more young people to enter farming. 

Vertical integration (coop) if possible — grain -- feed lots -- 
marketing grains to gasahol -- to livestock feeding -- to glucose 
and related industry -- on coop basis. 

1. Regulate export/ imports to coincide with domestic income needs, 

2. Encourage coop vertical integration of Ag products/processing. 

II - 76 

1. National legislation. 

2. Two price systems. 

a. Public Utility Concept for domestic needs -- control marketing 
and price. 

b. Balance of production into national reserve, industrial uses and 
world markets to find its own price. 

3. Regional soil and water conservation programs. 

1. Guarantee survival of family farm. 

2. Encourage agricultural diversity. 

3. Encourage local processing of agricultural products. 

1. Federal government farm programs. 

a. Limit production. 

b. Price regulation. 

c. Market expansion. 

2. Market expansion through state or local programs. 

Each state have their own slaughtering and processing plant and feed their 
own state first before shipping out. Marketing, stabilizing and processing. 
Protect farmers' land areas that are threatened by bank erosion, diversions, 
etc. Much good farm land has been lost and will continue. An example is 
Fort Berthold Indian Reservation in early 50 's. 

Federal government or a farm group must provide direction and control of 
how much is planted and then provide storage of crops for lean years of 
production. Price paid to producer (farmers) is in direct relation to 
cost of production. (World market enters into this -- U. S. doesn't control 
this.) Price and production controls are inherent in stablizing farm 
production and income. Research to develop new markets for farm crops. 
Broader uses. 

Continue development of farmer input into marketing and pooling concepts 
and processing. 

Cost plus percentage of profits. Set prices. 

Minimum floor on prices. New products. Relationship to cost and prices 
of products. New markets. 

II - 77 

Emphasis on local or regional processing and use of ag products. 

Minimum and maximum prices with acreage controls. 

Production -- control variables? 

weather (irrigation) 

acres (soil bank) 

Prices supply/demand (national/world) 


Local processing -- Potatoes, cheese, meat. 

Diversification -- finding new by-products. 

Expand foreign markets. 

Create incentives for food processors to move into region. 

More crop diversification. 

Stricter import regulations. 

Stricter import and export regulations. Utilize farm loans. Increase 
farm product prices. Price support from federal government. 

Fair return for their products -- federal aid for family farmer -- 
long range controls. 

Increase the support of farm products; decrease the price-fixing ability 
of a few corporations. Wheat pool. Local processing. Diversification. 

Federal intervention on large farm business monopolies, Safeway, etc. 
Create opportunity for small farmer. Regional projections for produce 
need. Distribute growth load. 

Wheat pool concept. 
Regional mill and elevator. 
Crop subsidy. Price supports. 
Local transportation control. 

II - 78 

Restructure farm market control. 

Family farms must be guaranteed they will be allowed to survive. 

Governmental marketing research programs. 
Use of parity pricing supports. 

1. Federal recognition of farm importance. 

2. Marketing analysis. 

3. Educate farmer (best technology). 

4. Management Skills. 

5. Develop international markets. 

6. Government market research. 

7. Preferred financing. 

8. Provide low cost energy. 

9. Land grant college effectiveness. 
10. Extension service. County agent. 

Provide financing incentives. Diversification of assistance from land 
grant colleges and marketing analysis services to enable farmer to 
achieve optimum profits through the best choice of production factors 
for the wisest use of land through diversification of management. 

Promote financing policies that realize the economic balances of capitali- 
zation vs. labor intensiveness, e. g. energy costs. Transportation costs 
today adversely affect people from high technology. 

Develop new international agriculural (stable) markets for the regional 
agricultural products. Assure the continuation of the family farm — 
farm equipment manufacturer sensitivity for equipment purchases. 

Production controls. 

Guaranteed floor price for commodities. 

Federal floors for commdity prices. 

Diversification of agriculture through expanded irrigation. 

II - 79 

Supply management program with fixed reserves (domestic and international) 
and based on parity. Agriculture is a very individualistic industry that 
requires public sector protection. 

a. Federal recognition of the importance of agriculture as a major 
economic resource. 

b. Creation of area or regional agricultural policy and price control 
boards comprised of representatives from farm and ranch interests. 

A strong farmers' organization -- to be a force in determing farm prices. 

That the farmers organize themselves as a bargaining unit. 

Federal acknowledgement of the agricultural community as a major national 
resource and economic sector of the U. S. economy. The creation of area or 
regional designated agricultural economic policy boards, comprised of 
representatives from (farm and rancK) agricultural interests. 

Government restrictions on acreage limitations should be lessened, 
farmer to play a more active role in his market prices. 


Control imports -- improve foreign marketing. 

Control imports. Promote long-range export contracts with foreign countries. 
Once again, help establish the family farm and assure equity to the farmers. 

Regional marketing office to establish long-range export contracts, 
agriculture imports through concentrated lobby efforts. 


Regional market office with sales office for world-wide markets. 

Lobbying effort; regional marketing system. 

II - 80 

Loan guarantees and tax incentives which allow farm and ranch operations 
to diversify into areas such as tree farming, fish farming, orchards, 
crop diversification, etc. Object: to minimize impact of external control 
of agricultural markets. 

Federal commission to establish price floor (actual cost^ for natural 
resources for domestic production use. 

Eliminate the myth of free-enterprise, commodity pricing and enact cost 
commodity pricing. 

II - 81 


Mr. Plunkettj will you take over now for the third and fouth 

DR. PLUNKETT: Thank you very much, Jim. The third subtopic is: 
Agriculture and energy development. That is to be considered as a whole. 
For five minutes now, I would like each of you individually to think your 
own thoughts. What do you think would be the most effective suggestion 
or series of suggestions or ideas about agriculture and energy develop- 
ment in the Old West Regional area? 

MR. KEPFORD: Could you elaborate on what you mean? Is it energy for 

DR. PLUNKETT: It's not limited to that. As I understand the notion, 
it's generally perceived by most people that energy development is going 
to have a fairly significant impact on the region. How can that impact 
be modified in such a way as to benefit agriculture, not just simply the 
amount of gas required to drive the tractors or heat the homes on the 
farms, but, rather, how can this process of development, which many people 
foresee taking place within the area or within the region, be modified or 
directed to benefit the existing basic agricultural economy to minimize 
conflicts and to maximize the return through employment of people who are 
on farms? Or, any other way that you can think of to make this inter- 
action as beneficial as possible and to reduce the conflicts. I think 
that was the basic idea. The industry or activity that everbody ciin see 
coming is going to involve at least in some part energy development. 
How can we modify or use that effectively to make the farms more efficient, 
more productive and make it beneficial? You have about five minutes to 
put down your thoughts. You are not supposed to share them at this point. 

All right, the natural progression then is to go ahead and start sharing 
your ideas at your table. Let's take about ten minutes to share your ideas 
and start on your voting procedure. 

Let ' s proceed . Are any groups ready? 

MR. STOERKER: We are ready. 



Go ahead. Win. 

We are going to give you three words: Recycling waste 

DR. PLUNKETT: Recylcling waste products. That was your consensus? 
All right. Next? 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: To encourage the development of both agriculture and 
energy, number one, increase exports of agricultural products; and, number 
two, decrease imports of energy. 

DR. PLUNKETT: Now, we have two reports. 

II - 82 

MS. CAMPBELL: Bill Kranda is going to give our report this time. 

MR. KRANDA: It's basically the same ideas, but one idea we had that is 
different is the use of our land. Take the recycling center, the excess 
commodities, waste, the railroads and use ours in the final repository 
for recycling these things, plastics, alternatives, mineral reclamation. 
The product that's unuseable can be spread on the soils as soil reclama- 
tion products, as well as fertilizer, so our box cars and railroads 
that are using coal going out don't return empty. They return with solid 
waste. We should also use solar and wind energy to power the plants. A 
six billion dollar project would do it. 

DR. PLUNKETT: Now, let me make sure I understand this. Use the region 
as a final repository for solid wastes? 

MR. KRANDA: Yes, and reclamation of those wastes. 

DR. PLUNKETT: What about hazardous waste? If I understand what you 
mean, this is going to be the dumping grounds of America. Is that what 
you are asking for? 

MR. KRANDA: For reclaimable wastes. 

DR. PLUNKETT: Did you discuss atomic waste? 


DR. PLUNKETT: This is only recyclable or reclaimable wastes? 

MR. KRANDA: And excess commodities. Bring back from the East Coast all 
their solid waste. We should bring the cars back full, not empty -- 
cost effectiveness. 

DR. PLUNKETT: Is there another table ready to report? 

MS. BANKS: We came up with local development of natural resources. That 
means not only the local development, but the local processing of potash, 
ammonia, oil, coal, and so on, with related reclamation aspects. Another 
item that came up was protecting the rights of the small farmers and 
that the farm population should be employed whenever possible in energy- 
related areas. This involves not only the employment of the farm popu- 
lation, but also gets into a regional training program -- if, necessary, 
a regional training center for energy-related occupations, a tuition-free 
situation between the states. 

DR. PLUNKETT: Local development of natural resources and processing them 
within the region. Protecting the rights of small farm owners to protect 
them from the impingement of large mining firms? 

MS. BANKS: That and when they are surf ace owners . Tied with that, local 
development of natural resources that would utilize appropriate modem 

II - 83 

DR. PLUNKETT: Thank you. Bryan, are you folks ready? 

MR. NELSON: For what it's worth --we are not sure we understood the 
goal. We have several, but we agreed that we need good reclamation 
laws, because it has been proven, with proper reclamation, after an 
energy - development or strip-mine or whatnot, sometimes the land can become 
more productive than it was previously. We feel that there definitely 
has to be good laws for the protection of prime farmlands. There are 
too many acreages being taken out of production which can never be put 
back into production. At some point in time we are going to wish we had 
them. We believe in diversifying energy development. By this we mean to 
consider the creation of job opportunities so as to have a balance. Maybe, 
instead of going down the road saying, we need all this much energy, maybe 
we better come up with new ideas of how to insulate better. This sort of 

DR. PLUNKETT: Conservation versus production. Thank you. We will go 
ahead with Ailsa Simonson. 

MS. SIMONSON: Reduce uses of energy for agriculture, develop the energy 
souces that we have, not concern ourselves with very many more feasibility 
studies, and develop a regional approach to energy education. We mean 
that literally -- education -- eliminate, for example, out-of-state tuition 
in the region and seek union acceptance of voc-ed training in place of an 

DR. PLUNKETT: A school for apprenticeship? I don't get the point. 

MS. SIMONSON: That probably would be the argument, but we ignored that. 
By seeking union acceptance of vocational education training in voc-ed 
schools in lieu of a five-, seven- or eight-year apprenticeship under a 
journeyman, that type of training. 

DR. PLUNKETT: 1 have the point. 

MR. KEPFORD: We have a total of six ideas and they will be voiced by two 
people. Moving into the area of diversity, we recommend research into 
bioconversion of agricultural waste and excess products, agricultural 
products for at least energy use, encourage the use of solar drying of grain 
and the use of wind energy, insure preference to agricultural and community 
water rights as opposed to preemption for energy production, maximize the 
conversion of water reservoirs and mandate maximiim energy conservation. 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: We are also going to recommend that the region sponsor 
an institute -- an engineering and legal institute — to address itself to 
the problems, the conflict of law regarding water so that we can address 
it conjunctively rather than disjunctively. And bring into harmony under- 
ground water with surface water, such things as whether we approach it on 
the basis of watershed or aquifer; that the region sponsor such an insti- 
tute with special emphasis focused toward the engineering- legal aspect of 

II - 84 

DR. PLUNKETT: Let mc paraphrase. There were two points. One, mandate 
maximum energy conversion. Two, maximize conservation of water. We have 
two other tables. 

MS. CLARK: Our table discussed all of the recycling and alternative 
energy sources, promoting their use, et cetera. We felt we need to 
develop a very long range plan to develop an alternative energy- 
efficient rural transportation system. 

DR. PLUNKETT: Rural transportation system. That is for both people and 

MS. CLARK: Yes. I think the discussion centered primarily on products, 
but there should be a people system, also. 

DR. PLUNKETT: We have one more table. 

MR. GERL: We have four ideas. One, establish an energy bank in the region; 
two, develop agricultural-related businesses with energy byproducts, such as 
fertilizer plants; three, hydroelectric dams with priority for irrigation; 
four, build pipelines to the various state legislatures and state agencies 
to gather all the hot air and natural gas. 

DR. PLUNKETT: I believe we have had all the reports. 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I would like to give a minority report. I have 
heard everyone mention a lot of things which culminate in trading non- 
renewable resources for renewable energy resources. I didn't hear anyone 
say how that would be done. My suggestion is that socio-economic impacts, 
such as dislocation and change in the physical features of lands, and so 
on, ought to be considered as a production and development cost; whereas, 
severance taxes, if they are to be a vehicle, must be focused on developing 
renewable energy resources to support the primary economic sectors, such as 

DR. PLUNKETT: Severance taxes to be used for renewable energy resources in 
support of agriculture. The first one is socio-economic impact should be 
considered as a cost of production. 

II - 85 


SUBTOPIC: Agriculture and energy development. 

Important to develop ways of recycling farm waste to produce energy 
products . 

Alternative uses. 

Agricultural land must not be mined -- strip mined land should be reclaimed. 
Develop alternate energy sources for farms -- gasohol, methane, wind power. 

Development of new concepts in long-range, rural -oriented transportation 
systems. Long-range plan to develop alternative, energy-efficient rural 
(long distance) transportation system. 

Most important aspect is conservation: scheduling of irrigation and of 
energy use. Next is research into bio-conversion-grains field waste. 
Governments (regions) have instruments for wide collection and processing 
of material . 

We need technology in place to utilize agricultural products or bi-products 
for energy needs on the farm or in the areas. 

-- methane 

-- distilleries 

-- wind 

-- solar 

1. Insure preference for agriculture of water rights. 

2. Preference for agriculture of energy production. 

Maximize conservation of water resources. 

Modify development to recognize local "carrying capacity" of agricultural 

base. a. water b. social structure. 

Job-hiring preference to local labor force, particularly on part-time 


II - 86 

Develop technology for on farm generation of energy. 
Investigate the efficient use of energy in agriculture. 

1. Water resource availability must be allocated first for agricultural 
and community use. 

2. Encourage energy independence for farms and communities. 

3. Encourage industrial and community recovery and reusage of water. 

4. Mandate maximum energy conservation. 

Change our method of farming to consume less energy and still meet 
the production we have now. 

- Let's get on with it and develop energy resources we have; but in harmony 
with man and nature. If we don't, in N. D. and our region, an alternative 
energy source (to replace coal) will be found. 

- Seek new ways to use agricultural products and develop uses for same. 

- We have found reclamation works - let's develop energy and reclaim as 
much land for agricultural uses as possible. 

Develop a regional approach to energy related training, e. g. , gasification 
power plant production -- should be regionally integrated and eliminate 
instate tuition requirements -- develop best possible staff for each as- 
pect of energy training. 

Establish a relationship with organized labor that allows some institu- 
tional training to replace apprenticeship for trades. 

Reclamation research used in energy industry with purprose of applying to 
agriculture improvements elsewhere. 

Seek to attract industry to the energy sources rather than exporting the 

Solar and wind energy. 

Emphasize to industry: 

-- Employment of farm population in energy- related industries is very 

-- Utilization of by-products from the energy industry by the agriculture 

-- Strict enforcement of reclamation laws (restore lands to production), 

II - 87 

Lower price regulations for farmers and energy along with developing 
coal plants and mines. Redevelop land after mining. Local development 
of oil. 

Energy development consumes a great deal of water which puts it on a natural 
conflict with the agricultural sector. Utility and energy establishments, 
because of their vast financial resources, should not be allowed to dominate 
agricultural interest. State decision-making bodies should be formed, com- 
posed of both sectors, to formulate an acceptable methodology. 

Circle West Project. Bi-products from agriculture and energy — protect 
small farm concept -- reclaim land for agriculture. 

Develop potash and ammonia plants -- coal and oil development -- local 
refining — reclaim the land after mining to productivity. 

Make dollars available to agriculture-oriented economy for utilization of 
appropriate technology to develop lower and minimize cost factors and 
create energy conservation and cost effectiveness. Recycle natural 
resources which in turn protect environment. 

1. Diversify energy development to consider creation of job opportunities 
and balance of same. 

2. High farm energy priority. 

3. Improve and expand water use to be more effective to farmers. 

4. Deregulate gas. 

5. Pass an energy bill. 

6. Good reclamation laws. 

7. Protection of prime farm land. 

In order to provide an ample supply of energy for the farms and fertilizer 
for the crops, we need incentives to encourage additional production. 
Deregulate gas prices and research for alternate supply of energy. 

1. Non-location of energy plants on productive farm or agricultural land. 

2. Financial repayment by energy companies to displaced farmers (those who 
had to move due to removal of subsurface minerals) . 

3. Replacement of strip-mined area to better than previous condition. 

4. When strip-mining is done, gasohol should be provided. 

II - 88 

Food processing plants tend to be high consumers of energy and water -- 
encourage the location of such plants close to the raw material (agri- 
cultural products) and new energy sources -- water available via several 
waterways. Use investment tax credit and sliding scale property tax, 
i. e., 20%/year; 40%/ year, etc., as a tool in the allocation of such 
industries. Provide an export tax on non-replaceable natural resources 
which are mined and/or removed from the state. The income generated from 
such export taxes should be used to attract diversified basic industries 
which will provide jobs for future generations. In S. D. , the greatest 
waste of resources is the export of its educated young people -- 52% of 
its college graduates leave the state to find employment. 

First, it must be recognized that we cannot eat our cake and have it, too. 
Agriculture and energy development are on a collsion course so far as 
water is concerned. Coal energy development costs are exorbitant, both 
short and long range, in terms of general quality of life, tourism, agri- 
cultural production, health, and social stability. Coal energy develop- 
ment should be de-emphasized. VVhat is needed is protection from strip 
mining (and all other development) for Alluvial Valleys. Developing labor 
intensive rather than capital intensive is important for any area. It 
nurtures local self-sufficiency and would provide many more jobs than 
strip mining, goal gasification, etc. 

Reclamation of land used for energy development must be enforced. Land 
reused after development is completed should be put back into productivity 
with the understanding that it can be brought back to productivity. 

Allocate a percent for agriculture only. 

Energy development must be balanced with the existing economies to avoid 
dislocations. Must be diversification of energy development enterprises 
to provide balance between short-term and long-term resource development 
in creating a more stabilized and expanded job market. 

Irrigation -- extension of it -- with further development of energy 

Complete recycling of "waste" products. 

Develop new techniques for agriculture that are more efficient users of 
resources, as hydroponics, and use of waste products. 

Develop a comprehensive regional water and land use policy which creates 
(by policy) the desired balance between these two industries. 
Intensify efforts to generate desirable, agriculturally-related by- 
products of energy development, such as fertilizer production. 
Explore gasohol. 

1. Agricultural development -- subsidize farm income. 1 

2. Energy development -- make sure that measures are taken to ensure | 
training and job opportunities for residents of the region, whether or ' 
not the residents are located near the development sites. | 

3. Let market forces take care of conflicts. 'i 

Industry development based on "cost return" by private industry shall 
seek its own level, with net earned income in production or raw material. 

Preclude "boom or bust" -- reclamation -- returning mined lands to full 
production -- must be prime consideration. 

Energy bank. Develop agricultural related business (fertilizer plant) 
with energy by-products. Hydroelectric dams with irrigation priority. 

Coal by-products. Fertilizers - plastics. Employment. 
Dam and hydroelectric projects can also furnish water for irrigation. 
Regional energy bank with regulations to give the state and region 
first choice on all energy taken from the respective states to meet 
requirements now and in the future. 

Coal by-products. 

Regional energy bank. Develop agricultural-related business, such as 
fertilizer plants, etc., with existing energy sources. 

1. Development of local fertilizer sources. 

2. Development of more hydroelectric dams. 

3. Development of co.'il resources. 

II - 90 



Advanced reclamation research. 

Commitment of energy to regional needs and opportunities. 
Utilization of by-products as relating to agriculture. 
Priority of agriculture. 

Concentration on domestic energy production and therefore decreasing energy 
imports. Increase agriculture exports. Tie construction of energy 
conversion plant siting to a formula of securing new water availability 
for area agricultural production. 

Encourage development of both energy and agriculture to: 

1. Increase exports of agricultural products. 

2. Decrease imports of energy. 

Volumes of commodities that are price-depressing should be moved along with 
solid wastes to regional processing centers; reuseable metals, reclaimed, 
nitrogenous wastes converted to fertilizer, and bio-degradable starches 
converted to alcohol as fuels. Will revitalize failing regional railway 
lines that are farm-to-market necessities, and is environmentally clear 
and economical . 

II - 91 

DR. PLUNKETT: Our fourth and last topic is an important one in this area: 
Employment for minorities. 

Take about three minutes to list your ideas as to how we can enhance or 
increase employment opportunities for minorities. We would like each 
table to come up with a single idea. 

We are going to have the reports. Would you give us the first report, 
Anne Campbell? 

MS CAMPBELL: We are going to let the person whose idea we agreed with 
speak to it. 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I am in the business of training Indian people. 
Our recommendation is to encourage the development of industry within the 
high unemployment areas, specifically Indian reservations; and to assist 
tribal groups with the development and training of their local human re- 
sources to fit a specific development of industry within those areas. 

DR. PLUNKETT: The first one is the development and location of industry in 
high unemployment areas. 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: To encourage the development of industry within 
Indian reservations. 

DR. PLUNKETT: The second point? 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: To assist those tribal groups with the training of 
their local labor forces to meet those specific needs within the develop- 
ment of whatever industry it is. 

DR. PLUNKETT: Assist tribal groups in training for industrial opportunities. 
Win are you ready? 

MR. STOERKER: We have three items. Capital available for training for 
marketable jobs; two, aggressive enforcement of affirmative action laws; 
three, strengthening of accounting for minorities in any area or regional 
plans regarding economic development through direct representation. 

DR. PLUNKETT: Thank you. Bruce. 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Motivation and education for increased opportunity. 

DR. PLUNKETT: Patricia. 

MS. CLARK: In reservation areas, the industries in as many cases as possible 
should be tribal ly owned and operated with a profit-sharing type of plan. In 
the off-reservation areas, encourage the development of minority enterprises. 
We also have a college professor in our group who decided that our whole 
educational system needed to be more culturally oriented both in vocational 
training and academic areas. 

II - 92 

DR. PLUNKETT: It needs to be more culturally oriented? 

MS. CLARK: Right; the staffing, et cetera. The people who are going to 
teach in these areas should be aware of the culture. 

DR. PLUNKETT: And that's both academic and vocational. Jim. 

MR. GERL: Our group decided on the treatment of all employables as equals 
with no socioeconomic classifications. 

DR. PLUNKETT: Bonnie. 

MS. BANKS: The idea that came up most frequently as we went around the 
table was putting additional emphasis on federal money into the private 
sector. This goes into OJT kinds of activities. It was indicated 
before that there should be industries on the reservation and they should 
be owened by the tribes. What we are talking about is tax incentives to 
locate, perhaps, light industrial activities on reservations; also, 
achievement-oriented, vocational goals; increased emphasis on family train- 
ing; and integration of minorities into society. This includes the older 
workers who are now in new jobs: women, youth and Indians. 


MS. SIMONSON: Enhance the understanding of the native American employment j 
with existing and potential employer. lincourage and support the existing 
institutions that promote employment. For example, United Tribes, the 
community colleges. Encourage autonomous economic structure on the reser- 

DR. PLUNKETT: Thank you. Chauncy, how are you doing at your table? 

MR. KEPFORD: We have reached a breakthrough. We actually finished. | 

Number one, provide alternatives to just employment; two, recognize and 
accept ethnic, cultural diversity; three, allow local self-determination ' 

of economic and educational future; four, enforce affirmative action pro- 
grams; five, encourage self-help from minorities; and, six, carry on the 
program of basic fundamental education. j 

DR. PLUNKETT: Bryan. j 

MR. NELSON: Esther Edie will give our report. 

MS. EDIE: Many of the things that we discussed have already been mentioned, 
so I will mention only these. Create incentives for training in marketable ; 
skills, then establish training programs with support from top management ' 

not only for equal opportunity, but also for equal results. In apprenti- ', 

cable areas, training to occur under joint union management contracts, ; 

establish specific development projects ■•- 

DR. PLUNKETT: In apprenticable areas? 

TI - 93 

MS. ED IE: That's a new word to me, too, and and I'm having trouble with 
it. Apprenticable areas, areas with apprentice programs, training to 
occur under joint union management contracts; third, establish specific 
development projects within minority areas that are labor intensive, 
capable of upgrading skills and cognizant of the unique cultural back- 
grounds and orientation of the minority. An example of that might be 
assistance on reservations of conversion of homes to solar space and water 
heating by occupants, an activity which may easily develop into small 

DR. PLUNKETT: I think we have the nine reports. We are now nine minutes 
overdue. If you folks want to have lunch, you are going to have to go now. 
I hate to chase you off. I thank you very much for your participation and 
your help. Thank you. 

JI - 94 


SUBTOPIC: f'mployment for Minorities 

1. Provide alternatives to just employment -- as self employment. 

2. Recognize and accept ethnic cultural diversity. 

3. Allow local self-determination of economic and educational future. 

4. Enforce affirmative action program. 

5. Self-help from minorities. 

6. Basic education. 

1. Tribal owned industries - profit sharing enterprises. 

2. Encourage the development of minority enterprises in off -reservation 
communi ties. 

Establish more job opportunities in minority areas and provide profit- 
sharing motivation for workers. 

1. Minority-owned businesses with share of profits. 

2. More advanced education. 

Tax incentives to business in labor intense field that will train and 
hire minorities. 

Indian development corporation - capitalized by region. 

1. Loans to Indian business on reservations. 

2. Mandatory management training for borrowers. 

1. Schools addressing problems of educating in the fundamentals of 
reading, writing and math. 

2. Training of youth. 

Enforce affirmative action programs. 

Continuation and expansion of present policies. 

A. Industries - businesses - human services - farming expansion on or 
near reservations. 

B. Self-determination and tribal involvement in ownership, management, 

Opportunity for union -sponsored apprenticeship programs to be increased. 

TI - 95 

A broad, comprehensive approach that affects all aspects of life must be 
included. Reclocate the employment opportunities rather than the people. 
Training opportunities must be expanded in order to take advantage of 
job opportunities. 

1. Encourage minority businesses. 

2. Federal subsidy of private sector minority employment. 

3. Employer awareness of minority employment. 

4. Daycare centers. 

Encourage development in areas where the minorities are (e. g. reservation), 
Give industries a tax benefit to locate on reservations. 

Limited tax incentives (graduated taxation) to minority small businesses 
for first five years. Greater federal and state aid to voced technical 
schools, with individual aid based on academic achievement or success, 
i. e., automatic payment must depend on grade and not credit load. 

Remove barriers for the full employment, but not the skill training needed. 
Affirmative action. Family training. Help relocate. 

More federal spending on individual programs to train persons in different 
fields. More funding for OJT programs, classroom training, etc. Leave 
more time for main topic. 

Expand and intensify program to lessen cultural impact of minorities' 
integration into work force while training in a skill. 

Education -- training -- raise help in their environment so they will 
want better things in life and so will do more on their own to achieve 
these things. 10% of loans for construction must be purchased from 
minorities within state. 

Take public sector financing (CETA) and tie directly to private sector. 
Documentation required only for unemployment numbers, minorities, low 
income. Allow private sector to do direct, specific training: a) basics 
-- capabilities; b) OJT. 

Create desire to work through education and incentives; then provide training 
for skills. 


1. Expand affirmative action program. 

2. Develop skills through apprentice programs and formal training. 

On Indian reservations -- the development of small industries featuring 
low capital, labor intensive manufacturing solar collectors for better 
heating and space heating, functional knock-down green houses and similar 
units with adequate training programs, co-existent with extablishment of 
the industries. 

Training programs, equal opportunity - equal results. Result oriented. 
Proper job placement. Result-oriented affirmative action programs. 

Establish specific development projects for minorities in their area. 
For Indians, provide development funds and resources and specific pro- 
jects that are: 1. Labor intensive. 

2. Capable of upgrading skills. 

3. Recognize their unique cultural background and 

a) Public job announcements should be made for all vacancies in a commun- 
ity with Job Service becoming a knowledgeable and efficient agency for 

b) Increased training opportunities for jobs for which there is a demon- 
strated need. 

Capital expenditures to facilitate minority entrance into any occupation. 

Aggressive enforcement of affirmative action programs for employment of 
minorities. State and federal government should provide readily accessible 
centers for training in job skills and more than token placement efforts. 

a) Capital available for training for marketable jobs. 

b) Aggressive enforcement of affirmative action laws. 

c) Strengthening of accounting for minorities in any area or regional 
plans regarding economic development through direct representation. 

Motivation and education for increased opportunity. 

II - 97 

Employment opportunities should be available in the service sectors 
(public and private) as well as agricultural and extractive industries. 
Should provide opportunities for making a living and provide the balance 
to live meaningful life. 

1) Provide incentives (tax, guaranteed loans, etc.) to locate stable 
industries near reservations and other high unemployment areas. 

2) Vigorous state efforts to promote affirmative action -- not only by 
agencies required by federal government. 

Promotion of public and private measures to secure jobs in existing growth 
industries, specifically to include training, recruitment, and placement 
(at no cost to employed individual) in industries in the region, even 
where movement must take place across state lines. 

Deal with minorities as human beings without reference to minority/ 
majority status and impose severe sanctions against those who do. 
Historical neglect, i. e. , educational opportunities, etc. are to be 
remedialized by professional assistance. 

1. No quota systems. 

2. All people should be given equal opporunity -- any job should be filled 
by anyone who is capable of performing it. 

3. Who are minorities? 

1) More specific actions and coordination with minorities from state and 
federal agencies and particularly private industry in implementing train- 
ing and employment opportunities for such groups as Tribes, women, 

and other persons . 

2) Strengthening inclusion in state and area plans for minorities and 
strengthening available training and educational opportunities for 
planned and ongoing jobs in the private sector, as well as those plans 
of such groups as Tribes. 

3) Strengthening minority enterprises by inclusion of them in all plans 
in the agriculture, energy and other development fields. 

4) Accounting of minorities in any plans - their representation. 

De-emphasize the quota system. 

Treatment of all "employables" as equals with no social -economic classification. 

II - 98 

Education is the key variable. 78% of Indian population in S. D., 
over 25 years of age, did not complete high school. 
Reservation-based, diversified, light industry. Ideally should be 
owned and operated by reservations in a coop corporation format. (Use 
some of the money currently going into social services for seed money 
in such projects -- currently over $7,000/American Indian in the U. S. 
being expended by BIA et al, with little of those resources correcting 
problem, but rather such is being used to treat the symptoms. Histori- 
cally, has been a social orientation rather than economic.) 

Develop industry in minority concentration areas, but before we can do 
this, steps must be taken to educate and train locally (a long-range 
plan), e. g. : 

1. Educators must familiarize themselves with minority problems and 

2. Then, provide training at the educator's home institutions to those 
teachers who are teaching minority children to raise students who 
can attain success in technology-oriented educational institutions 
away from here. 

3. Skills need to be directed toward culturally-oriented aspects with 
which minority persons have traditional familiarity. 

Give them an incentive to work and train them on-the-job or in training 

Concentrate on developing employment opportunities on reservations that 
have long-term employment possibilities rather than grants. 

1. Help develop industries on Reservations. 

2. Educate non -minority employers as to cultural differences to improve: 
a) understanding; b) retention rate. 

3. Support United Tribes, its programs and concepts. 

4. Increase search for trainers at voc ed schools and work individually 
for retention. 

5. Include federal programs. 

6. Support their community college concept of training at local level. 

a. Tax break to locate on reservations. 

b. V. T. schools - by achievement rather than presence. 

c. Affirmative action within agencies. Family training. 

d. More federal dollars on specific programs, i. e. , OJT. 

e. Integrate American Indian into society. 

f. . Education - key; . Reservations-based light industry. 

g. Improve self-image/total environment, 
h. Private Sector OJT, very important. 

II - 99 



Leaders : 

Myron Johnsrud 

Director, Cooperative Extension Service 

North Dakota State University 

Bill Glcnnon 

Planning Staff 

State of South Dakota 

II - 100 

DR. JOHNSRUD: Good morning to you. My name is Myron Johnsrud. I'm 
director of the extension service at North Dakota State University in 
Fargo, North Dakota. My colleague this morning is Bill Glennon from the 
State Planning Bureau at South Dakota. We will attempt to lead the group 
through the rather interesting and complex, pervasive, perhaps somewhat 
emotional, topic that we have before us. Specifically, the topic is: 
The fiscal capacity and service delivery problems of government. I think 
it would be well to quickly introduce yourselves and get acquainted with 
the people at your table. 

As you would surmise from looking at the topic, it is a rather large topic 
and really cannot be dealt with in a two-hour period if you leave it de- 
fined as it is in the booklet you received. Yesterday, as part of the 
orientation for the workshop leaders, we were asked to try to define four 
subtopics under the broadest question of fiscal capacity and service 
delivery. Bill and I took advantage of the problem to ask the other dis- 
cussion leaders for their thoughts on what the subtopics should be. Again 
last evening and this morning, we attempted to redefine the subtopics, and 
we do have four. We put the first topic on the board, and that is the one 
we will be dealing with first this morning. 

As was mentioned in the general session earlier this morning, each of you 
will have an opportunity to provide input in the deliberations here today 
and tomorrow. We hope we will be able to do it in a rather comfortable 
fashion at the tables where you are now sitting. The technique is called 
the Phillips 66 system. You will have a very limited time to generate 
your ideas and then share thera with the total group through a structure 
that we will set up here in a moment. 

We will have each group quickly and as democratically as possible, elect 
a chairman. We do not have time to spend fooling around with this, so you 
have about 15 or 20 seconds to elect a group chairman. 

Have each of your groups duly elected a chairman? I use the word "chairman" 
after some discussion with some people, and I am comfortable with that 
term, so I hope you will understand that I am using it as a neutral term. 
Will the chairman from each table please stand up so we can see each of you? 
After a hard and quick campaign, let's recognize the people for their respon- 
sibilities today. 

The first official duty of the chairman of each group is to select a recor- 
ding secretary. Would the recording secretaries please stand up? 

The chairman should now take a packet of cards and give one card to each 
member of your group, please. It's on these cards that each of you will 
record your individual thoughts and ideas and resolutions to problems and 
concerns in relation to each of the four subtopic areas. Number one is 
written on the board; and we will put the others on the board as we progress 
through the morning. You will have about five minutes to write down your 
ideas on this first topic which is, "What are the major fiscal capacity 
and service delivery problems at various levels of government in the Old 
West Region?" 

II - 101 

We thought this would be sort of a stage-setting question to get each of 
us in a frame of mind to deal with the other three subtopics that we will 
bring up as we move through the morning. Once you have put these ideas 
on your cards, we'll ask the chairman to surface from your group with the 
most important problem. However you want to define that, in your group, it 
will then be shared by the chairman of each group with the total group. 
It doesn't mean that other ideas that do not make that top list are not 
important, but we want to get the flavor of what you are suggesting as 
the top concern of each table. The others will be collected by the recor- 
ding secretary in your group. They will not be lost. Your ideas will be 
retained. If you have any questions you want to raise with the Old West 
Regional Commission, you can put your names on those cards and state the 
question. They have indicated they would attempt to respond to you, so 
it also serves for that purpose. Are there any questions? 

TABLE FIVE: Would it be appropriate to indicate this is question number 
one instead of writing out the whole thing? 

DR. JOHNSRUD: Just indicate the number. 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Would it make any sense to at least know what the 
other three subject areas are? 

DR. JOHNSRUD: The second one is, "What is the responsibility of federal 
and state governments with respect to disparities in basic public service 
levels resulting from differing fiscal capacities of communities, rather 
than community preference?" The third one is, "What should be the fiscal 
and administrative responsibility of a level of government that makes laws 
and promulgates regulations, and the level of government that must comply 
with these laws and regulations?" And the fourth one is, "What should be 
the fiscal policy of state and federal government in declining slow-growing 
and rapidly-growing rural areas whose fiscal capacity is inadequate to 
provide public service needs such as education, law enforcement, public 
health?" Those are the four subtopics. 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Mr. Chairman, is it the procedure to put down our 
thoughts, without benefit of any discussion within the group? 

DR. JOHNSRUD: Yes. You will do this in solo fashion; then you will have 
discussion in your group. After each of you puts down your ideas, then the 
chairman will ask each of you to share your ideas with the group. You will 
select the one you consider the most important in your group and that will 
be shared with the total group. All ideas will be retained because they 
are recorded on those cards that you have before you. You have five minutes 
to put down your own ideas. 

The next step in the process is that the chairman of each group should 
solicit from each of you the ideas that you have written down and then 
arrive at a consensus that you want to share with the total group because 
you think it is the most important idea. Keep in mind that the ideas that 
each of you has are not to be judged as to whether they are good or bad, 
but you have to surface now with the best of the ideas. 

II - 102 

I am going to ask the chairman of each group to come up here and share that 
one idea you have surfaced as the top item. The chairmen will please identify 
themselves when they come up here. 

RICHARD WAGGENER: Richard Waggener, the mayor of Green River, Wyoming. 
Perhaps this isn't written in the best English, but at least we did get a 
thought down. It's to broaden the tax base of local government to a larger 
base, such as a county or area. In some cases, consolidate and coordinate 
local governments to provide some services, such as fire, police, sewage, 
solid waste, to increase our efficiency. 

MR. GLENNON: This table would like to see the local tax base broadened in 
a geographical sense to possibly a county or area-wide level with a consoli- 
dation of local government services or local government functions? 


DR. JOHNSRUD: Bill will be paraphasing to be sure we have the essence of 
your statements. The chairman from this table. 

DAN SULLIVAN: Our table felt that the means and the monies currently exist 
to solve most of the major growth problems in the region, but the revenues 
are not currently transferable across the jurisdictional lines. The trans- 
ference of that fiscal capacity and those solutions have to improve from 
the federal, state and down into the local governments. The solution is 
there, the money is there, the problems can be solved, but the jurisdic- 
tional transference of those solution dollars has to be improved. I'm 
Dan Sullivan from Community Development Center in Casper. 

MR. GLENNON: Basically your thru.-^t is to transfer fiscal capacity down 
to the local levels from the higher levels? 

MR. SULLIVAN: And to improve that ability. It may or may not exist at 
this time to do that. 

MR. GLENNON: You didn't have any specifics. One was to bring down some 
of the fiscal capacity they're presently -- 

MR. SULLIVAN: Let me give you an example. I think the consensus is, counties 
in most cases have tremendous financial ability, which they may not share 
with the municipalities within that county. Some way the solution that exists 
within the county in some cases has to be improved either through legislative 
change or through cooperative efforts. The solutions exist, but cooperation 
may not exist in order to get the solution implemented. The monies might be 
in the wrong place. 

MR. GLENNON: So, increase intergovernmental cooperation? 


DANIEL RYLANCE: I'm Dan Rylance, representative from Grand Forks, North 
Dakota. Table three identified as the major problem the following: The social 

II - 103 

cost of space in the Old West Region results in a mismatch between avail- 
able fiscal capacity on the one hand, and the delivery of services through 
the existing levels of government on the other hand. We identified some 
specific problems under that general problem theme. That is, the lack of 
technical expertise, the lack of fiscal management, area budget is one 
example, constitutional and statutory restraints, and lastly, some federal 
guideline restrictions on this general problem. In summary, I think mis- 
match between available fiscal capacity in the region on the one hand, and 
the delivery of services through the existing levels of government on the 
other hand. 

MR. GLENNON: That's largely due to the space -- social cost of space. Did 
you want to include that? 

MR. RYLANCE: That would be fine. 

MR. ALLEN BERVIG: I would like to compliment the first three tables. They 
took our ideas and already said them, but we would like to add a little 
more to that. We feel in many cases the available fiscal capacity is there, 
but one of the problems is reaching the maximum per capita benefit for the 
greatest need. We get into this problem of some areas being richer and 
others are poorer. There is a better way to distribute these monies where 
the need is the greatest. We felt that it's one thing to say there's a 
need, but there is something else called documentation of the need. In some 
way we need to document the disparity in order to correct this problem that 
we see between monies received by these different local governments. I'm 
Al Bervig from northwestern North Dakota. 

MR. GLENNON: You said the problem is primarily the distribution? 

MR. BERVIG: Disparity within the region -- different areas of government -- 
and the need for a documentation of what the disparity actually is in the 
public services. 

MR. WARREN WHITE: Warren White with the State Planning Office of Nebraska. 
The consensus of our table was that there are federal and state laws which 
maintain rules and regulations and standards that make it extremely diffi- 
cult for government to focus on the resources needed for planning, finan- 
cing and delivering services which will comply with these laws — without 
sufficient laws forthcoming. I guess if you want to put it in a few key 
words, it would be the multiplicity of unflexible standards of programs 
at the federal level without sufficient resources forthcoming to provide 
the delivery of these services. 

MR. GLENNON: Basically, unflexible federal standards in programs without 
accompanying money to meet those standards? 

MR. WHITE: In some respects, yes. Bill, do you want to state, "In con- 
junction with federal"? 

DR. JOHNSRUD: Next table. 

II - 104 

ROBERT SHIVELY: Being one of the last tables to report, I can say we 
have nothing new. All of the problems that we identified have been pretty 
well covered. The eight of us identified three problems. One, problems 
of taxation; two, overlapping of functions between and within governmental 
units; and three, inadequate, long-range planning. To put this into one 
topic, we worded it, solving the problem of an inequitable system of tax- 
ation and better, long-range planning to prevent government by crisis. 

DR. JOHNSRUD: We might as well go to the next one. 

II - 105 


SUBTOPIC: IVhat are the major fiscal capacity and servi.ce delivery problems 
at various levels of government in the Old West Region? 

1) Coping simultaneously with the demand of the public, inflationary costs, 
and money-raising limitations. 

2) All government grants are terminal and tend to increase the overhead of 
local government. 

3) Cooperation between local levels of government is difficult because 
under law they are assigned different services, different mill levy limi- 
tations and bonding limits. 

There is very limited money to make a big effect on the problem and too 
much red tape to get the money to get the problem worked on. 

1. Equal quality education - inadequate tax base in smaller rural areas 
state provide: higher percentage to those areas that cannot increase 
local taxes as a percentage of value/income. 

2. Water. 

3. Impact area - state provide: higher percentage of cost. 

1. Lack of adequate basis of taxation, not just geographic. 

2. Inability to meet ever- increasing demands for service in a "non-growth" 

3. At local level: lack of trained office holders and appointees. At 
state level: lack of willingness to pay competitive salaries to attract 
top-notch employees. At federal level: No emphathy or understanding 
for the governed. 

Overlapping services by various state agencies where services are related. 
Combining process of better communication. 

Fiscal capacity and service delivery problem at various levels of govern- 
ment are all related to the taxing system and disposition of the tax revenue 
received. A taxing system, which is equitable to all and provides the re- 
venue to provide the necessary service, should be based on ability to pay. 

Obtain sufficient "front-end" money to prepare for an increase in local popu- 
lation due to expanded or new development. 

II - 106 

Educate locally elected officials and population about governmental pro- 
grams. Use all available agencies to bring about solutions -- welfare 
departments, community action agencies. Educate people about: 

a) Available resources. 

b) Combined resources to bring about solution. 

c) More participation by the citizen. 

d) Having regional plan that combines service delivery with theory. 

A major cause of fiscal inadequacies and service delivery problem is 
empire building by career public employees, i. e. , trying to create a 
demand for public services for which there is no real demand by the people. 
The "people demand too much service from government" syndrom is really 
created by staff people of public agencies. 

A communication breakdown starting at the regional level. Are we actually 
aware of the functions and services of the OWRC? Possible solution: Use 
of media to publish OWRC goals and the process to achieve them and ask 
for feedback which can be tabultated in the five states. 

Problems are: The general economy, ability to establish a sound tax base, 
lack of population, lack of transportation, income disparity, failure to 
coordinate planning on part of various levels of government, failure to 
initiate long-range planning. 

For state and local governments there is a problem in that they would 
be financially hard-put to "gear up" and meet all the service delivery, 
management, and regulatory demands explicit in recent and developing federal 
law and regulation. 

Perhaps there should be more cost assumption by the beneficiaries of 
local gov't services -- a "use tax" notion. 

Lack of adequate resources (tax base at the local level) -- federal and/or 
state mandates are increasingly taking a larger share of local tax base, 
leaving little option for local areas to address locally determined needs. 

1. State and federal laws which force state and local governments to 
provide a wider array of programs than they can or want to afford. 

2. Reduce the number of programs to fit the major issues to the time, 
manpower and fiscal capability of government. 

3. Duplicity of many programs at all levels of government. 

4. No common objective in program development. 

II - 107 

Local Government : Dislocation of tax base from center of population. 

(a) City-county; (b) County-county; (c) Across state lines. 

State Government : (a) Resistance to new taxing policy to create fiscal 

resource; (b) Suspicion of state authority over proposed delivery of 

services to local governments. 

Federal Government : (a) Federal statutes and guide lines prevent timely 

application of domestic assistance programs; (b) Tendency of federal 

agencies to over-control local use (standards on level of service). 

Major problem is the lack of systematically structured tax base to front- 
end development of public facility, housing and service delivery systems in 
rapidly growing, single industry communities. Two alternatives: Develop- 
ment banks combined with externalities pricing structure; pooling of local 

Increase the tax (revenue base) of local government by increasing grants- 
in-aid and revenue sharing. Have each state legislature be responsible 
for the delivery system within the state. 

To accomplish the most per dollar "good" for the best per capita rate. 
To recognize the most crucial aid and areas in need of fiscal involve- 

Federal level -- How do we establish federal standards of fund distri- 
bution which apply effectively to the 50 states, i. e., is the crisis 
social, economic, population, etc.? 

State level -- Should the states be the funnel through which all federal 
funds are distributed and should they have a final approval or rejection 
of funds. 

Local level -- Should local governments have to comply with state-set 
standards before receiving federal funds? 

1. Local level -- problem is inadequate "front-end" money; solution is 
larger share of severance taxes without any strings. 

2. State level -- poor institutional organization; solution is that states 
need reorganization by legislature and administrative actions (money is 
not state problem). 

3. Federal level -- Federal agency interfaces with region -- too centra- 
lized. Transfer functions to 0. W. Regional Commission because Com- 
mission is more aware of region's need and structure. 

Inadequate tax alternatives and resources for delivery of the minimal services 
by the governments involved as they are presently constituted. 

II - 108 

Federal government -- great fiscal capacity - no local responsibility for 

service delivery. 

State government -- fairly great fiscal capacity (but more variable than 

that of federal government) -- some oversight of service delivery should be 


Local government -- very variable fiscal capacity (poor and wealthyunits) . 

Pricing responsibility for service delivery. 

Because of low population density in many of the O.W.R. states, the cost 
of delivery of services is increased on a per capita basis. Fiscal capa- 
city is also affected by low population and lack of industrial base. 

At the municipal level, employee costs have increased (retirement problem) 
The local communities have tax problems caused by the area wanting more 
services. What kind of taxes needed? 

Local levels of government (i. e. , towns and counties) in developing and 
implementing an integrated approach to problems utilizing all resources, 
their own as well as those from the state and federal level. This is par- 
ticularly important to very small communities which have no idea how to 
begin to approach a problem. Also takes into account the peculiarities 
of the tax structure with federal level generating largest amounts and 
having the greatest potential for growth. 

Cities and counties must upgrade fiscal and development record-keeping in 
order to more accurately anticipate and document the cost of alternative 
development patterns (i.e., schools, utilities, maintenance services) as 
well as the benefits (i.e., revenues from property taxes and state coal 
separation taxes.) 

Education of the general public on programs that are for their use at 
various levels of government so that the programs can fit the needs of 
the local citizen who will use the service. 

Social cost of space, i. e. , a cost of government service which is present 
regardless of the density of population. In areas where there is a great 
sparsity of population, social cost of space is much higher and creates a 
difficult level of support for the small population. 

Federal government is involved in too many state and local issues. 

II - 109 

Definite mismatch between fiscal capacity of a level of government and 
the responsibility to deliver various levels of service being demanded by 
citizens. An example would be limited fiscal capacity for bonding indeljted- 
ness for counties and municipalities. This problem is significantly magni- 
fied under rapid growth. 

Prioritising needs to accord with abilities to service debts; municipal 
revenue structure will not yield sufficient funds to match needed expendi- 
tures; state's statutory debt limitations; revenues must be transferrable 
in time as well as across jurisdictional lines. 

A. The basic fiscal capacity problems of communities are: 

1. Low tax base 

2. Legislative restrictions on debt. 

3. Declining economies. 

B. Service delivery problems include: 

1. Inflexible criteria for assistance. 

2. Administrative red tape. 

3. Narrow scope of funding programs. 

In a rapidly growing community, the tax payer is required to provide the 
financial resources to maintain routine city services; frequently, revenue 
is not available and, consequently, services are curtailed, eliminated, or 
diminished in their effectiveness. 

The major problem involves defining the fiscal capacity and service delivery 
problems. That is, accurate projections of growth (or lack of growth) are a 
prerequisite to determination of problem areas. Solutions can only be found 
after the problems are defined. 

Bridging the time-lag gap between the need for service and the increased 

tax base to fund the services. 

Creating the mechanism of government/industry/public coordination, 

communication and cooperation which is needed to effectively manage 

rapid growth problems. 

Accurately assessing the needs of specific communities and focusing 

mitigating resources on those needs in a timely manner. (First things 


The needs of each community are site specific. If the rules for service 
delivery are uniform, they may not meet the needs of any community. There- 
fore, areas may be under or over serviced and have no opporunity to meet 
real local needs. This waste can only be eliminated by permitting more 
local decisions on service needs. 

II - 110 

1. Lack of adequate front-end financing. 

2. We are not competitive in recruiting adequate, qualified labor force. 

3. Tight labor market. 

4. Possibility of too low of a tax base to sustain enlarged service 
delivery system. 

5. Adequate planning time and lead time to develop system. 

There is little relationship between the obligation of local units of 
government to provide services and the tax resources to support such 
services which are either desired by the citizens or required by another 
level of government. 

Tax base related to cost of supplying city services or county services. 
Growth, demanding more service, puts more burden on tax base which in 
most cases is land. The region being agricultural derives income from the 
land, thus finds itself taxing the land, and thus putting more burden on 
the agricultural segment. Taxes on land should be related to the use of 
the land, i. e. , agriculture land taxed at lower rate than that for sub- 
division; broadened tax base. 

1. The need to consolidate local government to deliver services to itf 


2. The need to simplfy taxing procedure. 

3. Services can be better met by consolidation of delivery. 

Fiscal capacity — timely allocation of funding to meet identified concerns - 

crisis management - post crisis. 
Delivery problems -- Inability to instigate and administer flexibility while 

maintaining legitimate administrative oversight. 

A. Fiscal Delivery -- Constitutional and statutorily conflicting laws 
relating to the acquisition of debt by local governments. Needs to be 
classified and resolved. 

B. Service Delivery -- Inequity in the federal delivery systems to various 
sections of the county, i. e., formula distributions, updated population 

II - 111 

DR. JOHNSRUD: The question on the board is, "What arc the responsibilities 
of federal and state governments with respect to disparities in basic public 
service levels resulting from differing fiscal capacities of communities 
rather than just the community preferences?" 

In other words, the communities may decide to do something that is not the 
basic necessity, but we're talking about this question, the basic necessi- 
ties a community feels obligated to provide the citizens, but does not 
have the physical capacity to do so in relation to another community. We 
can all cite situations like this in declining areas. 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Go through that again. 

MR. GLENNON: Basically, we're dealing with towns or local communities 
that are just too poor to provide what most people would feel are basic 
levels of service. Whether it's an inadequate educational funding or 
public safety or water and sewer or whatever. Probably all states have 
that problem. I know we do in South Dakota. Some towns just can't afford 
from their own revenues to meet some of these problems. At what point is 
there any state or federal responsibility to help those places? 

DR. JOHNSRUD: Is that clear? 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: That's a tough one. 

DR. JOHNSRUD: You take money from some place to give to those places. Is 
there any thought? Everyone around each table would have a different point 
as to what is considered basic. It might not only be an education, but 
where do you go from there? To social services, to health services? I 
think you have some idea of what some level of basic services is, and I 
imagine every state has some communities that really can't provide it at 
the local governments. There are probably state and federal monies that 
are providing those services. Some people would argue there shouldn't be; 
some people say only the local level. You have five minutes to write down 
your individual thoughts, and then we can share them. 

Are you ready over there? 

TABLE TWO: Yes, we're ready. 

DR. JOHNSRUD: How about the table in the corner? Not ready yet? We will 
start this time with the table immediately in front of me and move around 
the room in the opposite direction. We are not going to write them on the 
blackboard. We will record them and try to clarify the response you have 

MR. SHIVELY: 1 will read ours and won't try to explain it. A prime respon- 
sibility of state and federal governments is to remain solvent themselves, 
but within this restraint -- or constraint -- basic public services should 
be prioritized, and equalization of funds provided when maximum local effort 
has been demonstrated. 

II - 112 

MR. GLENNON: Just to make sure I understand. State and federal govern- 
ments should remain solvent, then beyond that -- 

MR. SHIVELY: I think all levels of government should prioritize their 
basic public services. 

MR. GLENNON: Their basic services are then within -- 

MR. SHIVELY: If maximum local effort had been demonstrated. 

MR. BERVIG: Once again we want to second what they said. My secretary 
writes and I have some trouble reading the writing. I think 1 will get 
him to take a course on how to print. The consensus of our group is: 
State and federal governments should issue certain standards in basic 
needs. Addressing number two, state and federal governments should re- 
cognize the need to shift the financial resources to areas of greatest 
need, once again, on a documented basis. Third, provide incentives for 
local government to take initiative rather than rewarding local inaction. 
Basically, that's what was stated. 

In order to have monies come into an area, it should be demonstrated, by 
their tax efforts, they, too, are trying to do their share of raising 
local monies. Communications should not be from the top down, but from 
the bottom up. We need responsible local leaders, state legislators, local 
officials to say, "Hey, these are our concerns." This is what we think 
you should give a great deal of attention to. Instead of a bureaucracy 
coming down and saying, "These are your problems," we would rather have, 
them say, "Hey, these are our problems." 

MR. GLENNON: As you come up, it would be easier to leave me a copy of 
your written statement, than for me to write it out -- and save me from 
making mistakes. 

TOM CHARLTON: I'm Tom Charlton from the State of Wyoming. Our group 
decided that there should be a process established where the state, local 
and federal units of government come to some kind of a joint agreement 
about what level of government is responsible for providing benefits or 
providing services for the local units of government. Once this is de- 
termined, then you have that unit of government to provide the local ser- 
vice with assistance from the other units of government. There has to be 
some determination that the local units of government will put forth an 
effort to provide the public the service that's needed, and once that is 
demonstrated, the federal and state units of government can go ahead and 
provide that service. 

MR. GLENNON: You think there should be a process for establishing respon- 
sibility for service delivery? 

MR. CHARLTON: Right, and after a determination has been made, that the 
local unit should provide it, then the other units should help them provide 
it, guarantee they will, in fact, provide it. 

II - 113 

MR. SULLIVAN: Very simply, our table said the state and federal government' 
service standards probably are not necessary to every community equally. 
Local governments should be responsible and allowed to determine this for 
themselves, but where mandatory service programs are legislated, funding 
should be provided. 

MR. WAGGENER: Our table said local government should be involved with 
federal and state government standards, goals and objectives in resolving 
service problems. The standard setter should see the resouces are there 
to provide the services. And then as a last thought, the local leaders 
should also make sure that the local citizens are involved in the decision- 
making process. 

MR. WHITE: As inherent with most committees, we designed a horse and 
ended up with a camel. Develop basic public service standards, then judge 
whether they're being met, based on local spending and tax supports. In 
those areas where local tax support, or whatever you want to call it, is 
at maximum level, provide assistance to areas where inequities exist. 

DR. JOHNSRUD: Thank you very much. If the secretaries again will stack 
the cards of the individual comments alongside your elbow, I will pick up 
those while you are deliberating on the next topic. 

II - 114 


SUBTOPIC: What are the responsibilities of federal and state governments 
with respect to disparities in basic public service levels 
resulting from differing fiscal capacities of communities rather 
than just the community preferences? 

State and federal funds should be provided to allow the development of 
basic local services pertaining to environment and health. 

1. Most state governments constitutionally reserve to themselves the pro- 
tection of the health, welfare and safety (and sometimes, the education) 
of the people. Therefore, it is the state's obligation to create an ade- 
quate system of taxation to meet those needs. 

2. Incase of the feds, when national standards are set, the cost of meeting 
these standards must come from the standard setters. 

If some federal requirements for services were removed, many communi-ies 
would have adequate funds for the services they believe are necessary for 
their citizens. 

State and federal funds should be provided to allow the development of 
basic local services pertaining to environment and health services. 

Provide technical assistance through state structures to help communities 
and the given state to restructure or redistribute revenues to meet impact 

State governments have the responsibility of equalizing capabilities among 
the various intrastate units. 

Federal government is responsible for providing some sort of equalization 
between states. 

The state or federal government has some fiscal responsibility to lower 
political subdivisions as they create certain standards for those communities. 

Federal responsibility -- NONE, outside of federal programs. 
State responsibility -- Provide the mechanism, through state legislation 
and regulations, to al low communities the choice of pooling resources to 
address common problems. 



The state and federal responsibilities are only to support those programs 
that they mandate, i. e., water quality, sewage treatment, minimum levels 
of education, hospital standards, etc. 

Local community should have authority to determine needs, i. e. , "community' 
preferences; standards should be determined on local levels with minimal 
controls from state; flexibilities of standards. 

There is a limit of state and federal power -- and the local subdivision 
must know its limits. Whole area could, otherwise, go to state or federal. 

We must first define the functions that should be assigned to each level 
of government for administration; then we must allocate the specific per- 
centage of obligation for each level in financing the service. The responsi- 
bilities of federal and state will vary, depending on the level of obli- 
gation determined. 

Where a local government cannot provide a service necessary for its citizens, 
an effort by the local citizens, assisted by the state and federal govern- 
ments, to get the local citizen on the level of the surrounding area. 

The basic choice is between a real or a synthetic society. This question 
opens up a great philosophical and political argument about the limitations 
and scope of government Lf we are to retain a free society. Perhaps the 
key question is, "Can big government be all things to all people and itself 
remain solvent?" This answer will not be very popular, but we should take 
care of the needy -- not the greedy. 

First, determine whether the basic services provide benefits within the 
larger context, i. e., country-wide, state-wide, nation. If so, the respon- 
sibility must be shared by that level. If not, then possibly no government 
can be all things to all men and the problems must remain local problems. 
Some process does, however, need to be implemented to bring the greatest 
number of resources to bear on the problems of the community -- first, tech- 
nical assistance at least, then, possibly planning grants, then, who knows? 

Federal level should primarily be concerned with the broad policy establish- 
ment of regionally based basic services, but allow state and local govern- 
ments flexibility to deal with implementation of those services. 

II - 116 

Should be equal service regardless of fiscal capacity. State and federal 
should monitor. 

Only when there has been maximum effort on the part of the community 
(fiscally unable to meet problem) and a crisis exists. This might require 
a formula based on earnings, population, etc., in order to establish "crisis" 

Should be responsibility to communities in the area of education primarily. 
Impact funds available to communities without stability. Our area rides 
a boom or bust cycle -- coal, oil, timber, reforestation (plotted acreages). 
Tax base unstable. 

Education is the only basic public service for which equalization funds 
should be provided, and responsibility for determining levels of equali- 
zation and equalization funds should rest solely with the state. Federal 
funds, if any, should be channelled through state government. 

Federal and state governments need to disperse monies on an equitable 
basis. Question is what it means in determining this. Currently based 
on population and unemployment. Should be need and impact. 

Fiscal problems created by federal mandate should be totally addressed by 
federal government. Fiscal problems created by special state constitu- 
tional requirement should be funded by state. 

Basic governmental services vary depending on size, location, etc. of 
individual area. States and/or the federal government should prehaps 
share a tax base. 

The basic problem is the lack of systematic definition of responsibility 
and roles. Obviously, the responsibility passes up the line, but now 
federal often assumes the responsibility and either by-passes intermediate 
levels of government or forces federal guidelines and standards on inter- 
mediate levels. Solution is consistent method of operation with primary 
responsibility at state level for intra-state structure and standards and 
federal assistance channelled in same mode. 

There is a responsibility to identify disparities, prioritize needs and 
provide a means for distribution of funds in priority order. 

II - 117 

Assistance level should be determined by comparing existing local taxing 
effort to a minimum state standard for taxing effort to provide assistance 
to those social services agreed upon by state and local government. 

States should establish regional or area master planning and priorities 
for basic services and certify same to federal agencies for funding. 

May want to consider expanding an idea in most state laws that there are 
varying "classes" of towns/cities -- this is suggesting that differing 
standards of performance (service delivery) would be expected with each 
of these varying classes of communities -- feds and states could gear 
programs, requirements and aid toward this theme. 

This is a basic responsibility of state government and state government 
should tend to assure equitable distribution of necessary funds. Federal 
could be supplier of funds, but distributed by state according to state 

State and federal governments need to establish quality of life and func- 
tional service standards for communities of varying sizes and functional 
classifications. Diversity need not be eliminated since not all communities 
perform the same functions. 

1. Require federal and state governments to prepare a full fiscal impact 
statement before mandating new programs. 

2. Require state and local units of government to identify key issues or 

3. Require state and federal governments to provide technical and financial 
services to local units of government based upon locally developed needs 
as identified. 

To insure some degree of modern (water, sewer, garbage) form of living. 

The state and federal government should provide assistance in those areas 
in which it requires that certain standards be met. Additional assistance 
should be provided if financially feasible. 

State set minimum stand.irds and find their preferences or make it possible 
for local government to find them. 

II - 118 

Federal and state government should insure basic public services to local 
communities. This will, of course, necessitate supervision and control 
by higher levels of government. Education, social services, environmental, 
sewage treatment. 

Shift enough revenue from property taxes to income taxes (personal and cor- 
porate) in order to redistribute resources statewide to cover basic local 
needs, i. e., schools, police and fire protection, sewer and water. 

(1.) Providing basic, minimum, social services, based on and dociunented 
fiscal need, in relation to their tax base and tax effort. 
(2.) Responsibility of state legislators to determine their needs, not 
federal government. 

1. Because ^tatescreated state political subdivisions, they should transfer 
adequate wealth through taxation policy to provide "adequate" services in all 
cities, towns, etc. 

2. Federal response should be to lower taxes and redistribute larger share 
of revenues from regional/state sources (i. e. , mineral revenue and income 
taxes) . 

Maintenance of flexibility for delivery as needs arise over standardization 
of process does inhibit the capacity of depressed areas to effectively 
compete for resources made available through state and federal programs. 

Funding from either level should be made available to help alleviate 
these problems; however, such funding should be available for all in need. 
It is unfair to have state/federal funds go into a poor community while a 
moderate community might be levying high taxes upon itself. Definition 
of real level of service is needed - the basics 

sewage system; water; 

police and fire protection; education. 

State has a responsibility to help develop service to local citizens. 
State should help local government in developing, planning and financing. 

Need to define state, regional or national service goals; then decide 
whether or not the service is in the public interest; and see to it 
that resources are available. 

Match resources with needs through planning. State and federal governments 
have responsibility to educate people about planning and resources. 

II - 119 

DR. JOHNSRUD: We will turn around the blackboard and bring us to the 
third topic, and I believe I heard some ideas and suggestions in this 
last go-around that relate somewhat to this question: "What should be 
the fiscal and administrative responsibilities of the level of government 
making the laws and regulations and the level which must comply with the 
laws and regulations?" 

For example, in the education system, certain education programs are re- 
quired by one level of government and need to be complied with by another 
level. We know where certain county official positions are required, and 
they must be operative in each county, and you can go on and on. Environ- 
mental issues are now being brought into focus. This is what we're talking 
about. In other words, what is the responsibility of those that set forth 
the laws and regulations and those that have to comply? Again, five min- 
utes to jot down your ideas and then to the group setting to share ideas. 

Are all of the tables ready? Let's start with the table in the center and 
go around this way. 

MR. RYLANCE: The table came up with this response to question three: 
The level of government making the law or regulation providing the public 
services should be fiscally and administratively responsible for the 
timely and effective delivery of that service. 

DR. JOHN FERRELL: John Ferrell, Omaha, Nebraska. The legislative act 
implies the necessity of paying for the program and ensuring the adminis- 
tration of the laws as enacted. 

MR. WAGGENER: We get a little more long-winded on this. The level of 
government making the laws should definitely involve local citizens in 
government prior to the setting of standards and goals. The following 
are suggested: One, the standard-setter should see that the resources 
are available to provide the services. Two, provisions for planning 
assistance should be supplied, if requested. Three, inventory should be 
made to determine who is responsible for what. Four, there should be 
flexibility in applying and setting standards. Five, local government and 
state government should be able to negotiate together on the adjusting of 
standards. Six, as much of the decision-making as possible should be at 
the lowest level of government. 

MR. SHIVELY: Fiscal responsibility should be shared by all levels of 
government involved, but administrative responsibilities should remain 
as close to home as possible. Good two-way communication between levels 
of government is a necessity. To amplify that, even though a higher level 
of government may mandate a program and set the standards which are to be 
implemented, there should be some local fiscal input. This would help to 
ensure better administration than if it were all state or federal fiscal 
input for a program to be locally administered. 

MR. STEVEN McNICHOLS: The responsibility of the government making laws 
and regulations should be to provide the mechanism to establish needs. 
Documented needs require maximum effort taxwise at all levels of government 

II - 120 

to provide enabling legislation for local jurisdictions to comply and to 
identify local, state and federal resources. 

MR. BERVIG: Some ideas we came up with are: One, local government should 
be consulted by a higher form of government on major financial impacts 
prior to final or formal implementation of an act or law that affects them 
financially; local input should be solicited prior to implementation. 
Two and three, we thought that cities would like to have the resposibility 
for the implementation instead of the state having the responsibility. If 
it affects the city, the city itself should have the responsibility and 
see that it is implemented. Four, the differences on disparities should 
be reconciled between estimates and actual costs. One of the problems 
is that when some legislation is proposed and passed, you have to have a 
fiscal note attached to it; and sometimes the actual costs and the estimates 
are different. Somehow these differences must be reconciled. I guess what 
we're saying is that we need accurate record-keeping of what these laws 
actually cost. Going back to three, even though the cities might have the 
responsibility for implementation, the auditing system by the state and so 
on should be there to see that there is compliance on some of the laws that 
are passed. We also felt that the monitoring system seems to be pretty 
much in place at the present time to see that these environmental standards, 
whatever, are accurate. 

DR. JOHNSRUD: Thank you again for your response on these. I assure you 
that we are on time. You may be wondering about these rather strict time 
restraints, but the idea is to move through the process in an orderly 
fashion. 1 realize it pushes you pretty hard, but evidence shows the 
process does work, and we have a lot of good ideas up here. 

II - 121 


SUBTOPIC: What should be the fiscal and administrative responsibilities 
of the level of government making the laws and regulations and 
the level of government which must comply with the laws and 

It is the responsiblity of all law-makers to make laws and regulations to 
meet the needs of affected areas -- provide flexibility for specific 
situations. Input to laws and regulations must come from affected levels 
of government. 

Fiscal and administra.tive responsibilities should remain at the lowest 
level of government possible, but where it is necessary for one level of 
government to legislate goals and standards that impact lower levels of 
government, the funds should be provided largely by the propounding level, 
and administration or implementation left to the lower level. 

The level of government making or enacting the laws and regulations should 
assume the fiscal responsibility of implementing same. The administrative 
responsibility should be on a local level. 

There must be more communication and follow-up among levels of government. 

Policy or regulation makers: Fiscal responsibility -- make sure 
sufficient funds are available to carry out regulations. 

Recipient of regulations -- responsible to inform regulatory authority 
of level of funding required for requested programs. 

Need communication flow. 

Suggest more local control of rules and regulations without generalizations. 
Home control with possible federal guidelines. 

The laws and regulations should be made as close to home as possible if 
they are to be understandable to the public. IVhere too much money gathers, 
government can become a bright idea club and local compliance becomes 
painful and difficult. Basically, where a higher level of government im- 
poses conditions to lower levels that are beyond local abilities, the 
higher level of government should pay the bill in order to meet compliance. 

II - 122 

It would be easy to say, "If they make the laws and regulations, let them 
pay for it." Realistically, there is a financial reponsibility of every 
level of government. I believe, however, the administration should be 
"as close to home" as possible. A community, or county or state NEED is 
also a community, county or state responsibility. 

Based on comparable taxing effort: Provide funding and delegate adminis- 
trative responsibility, except for basic auditing, to lowest level of 
government possible. 

Level of government setting standards or regulations should provide re- 
sources to accomplish or meet the standards. However, before such standards 
are adopted, full social and fiscal impact should be noted. Coordinated 
standards and or regulations. Each agency sets standards independent 
of one another. 

Compliance which requires extraordinary local tax effort should be 
compensated or alternative means of complying should be provided. 

Consideration should be given for proper funding prior to adoption of 
programs. Local impact should also be solicited prior to adoption. 

Regulation should be directed at specifiable objective defined in terms 
of rate of improvement rather than regulate inputs or processes. The 
responsibility of the regulation should be to insure that required levels 
of improvement are based on total resources available. Regulated units 
have the responsibility to show investments proportionate to laid-on 

Require the rule-making body prepare an accurate administrative and fiscal 
impact statement on the various levels of government that will be required 
to comply with the law before the law becomes effective. Then provide 
the financial assistance required over and above existing costs. 

A fiscal note system should be adopted by state legislatures. This process 
should estimate financial impact of state legislation on local government 
and should include a self-correcting process to reconcile estimated and 
actual costs over time. 

II - 123 

Local government should be consulted when laws concerning local government 
are being considered. There should be no laws enacted mandating local 
expenditure without providing means of raising necessary revenue. 

Level of government making laws and regulations should give fiscal help to 
local government when necessary. Prior to adoption - get local input. 
Monitoring by state, federal governments is necessary. 

When standards are set, that level of government should assume the fiscal 
and administrative responsibility. 

The level making the laws and regulations must assume the basic responsi- 
bility for creating the mechanism necessary to insure compliance, including 
funding, technical assistance, or possibly punitive approaches, etc. 

There should be a strong correlation between fiscal support and setting 
the standards. 

There should be appropriate checks and balances accompanying the laws that 
are created by a higher political subdivision that are imposed on lower 
political subdivisions in order that the end result can be accepted by the 
recipient of the enacting legislation. 

He who maketh the rules payeth the costs. 

Requirements beyond local desire must be accompanied by funding. 

Fiscal responsiblity -- mandated programs should carry the funding. 
Administrative responsibility -- the administration of legislation must 
be accountable to the legislature and not to administrative regulations. 

Should provide the money and workable outline. 

Local government should be involved with federal and state governments 
in setting standards, goals and objectives in resolving service problems. 

II - 124 

The fiscal responsibility of the level making the regulations is to insure 
funding. Administrative efforts should involve initiating a program and 
then mnint.iining minimal contact. The level which must comply is primarily 
responsible for administration of the program. 

Administrative procedures should relate directly to legislative intent and 
the legislative body should assure that the intent is carried out. 

Each community and state should be able to set their own standards; 
standards for a large community in the East are not necessarily the same 
as a community in the West. Standards that affect health/welfare can be 
administered by the state after consultation with local officials. Fiscal 
responsibility rests with the maker. Too many laws and regulations. 

Politically feasible actions must be fiscally feasible. The creative act 
or the legislative act of the legislature implies the necessity of paying 
for the program and assuring the administration of the law as legislated. 

The level which makes the law and regulation should provide or make 
possible for lower level to provide the necessary funding to provide 
and administer. 

Fiscal responsibilities should be mutually accepted. Inter-communications 
mandatory in administrative process. Regulations with veto to be held on 
local level and state level of government only. 

Standard setter and local government or entity complying: 

a. Participation by local people through town meeting, etc. 

b. Make certain people know of fiscal and administrative parameters. 

c. Matching of resources and problems. 

Set reasonable and flexible standards after consultation with local govern- 
ment and citizens. Provide planning assistance, if desired. Provide review 
(general supervision) to ensure standard is mot (with a minimum of red tape) 
and ensure fiscal resources are available. 

II - 125 

1. An inventory of resposibilities to determine who is responsible for 

2. Flexible interpretations of what are basic standards of "quality of 

3. Reasonable application of standards considering location, size, etc. 

4. When standards are applied that are above community's or state's 
ability to pay for them, standard-setters must pay. 

The level of government making the law or regulation providing for public 
service should be fiscally and administratively responsible for the 
timely and effective delivery of that service. 

The responsibility of the government making laws and regulations should 
provide mechanism to a) establish needs; b) document needs; c) require 
maximum effort taxwise at all levels of government to provide enabling 
legislation for local jurisdications to comply and identify resources 
(local, state and federal). 

I. It is the duty of the highest government body to make the laws and 
help the lowest to execute such laws, provide their input from the 
citizens, before enforcement. 

II. Make standard responsibilities. 

Cautious - very cautious - long-term goals may not solve the needs of 
short-term problems. The value of the problem should be analyzed before 
attempting a solution I 

Develop a means (loans, grants, private monies) to provide advisory and/or 
fiscal assistance to a community or area until the community or area has 
stabilized and can function on its own fiscal base. Self-help must be 
first demonstrated. "Dependent upon specific situations." 

If the extraordinary problem or fiscal inadequacy is caused by forces out- 
side the control of a community (construction or closing of a large mili- 
tary installation, for example), state and federal assistance should be 
provided, but if the problem is caused by action of or inaction by the 
community (failure to develop the economy, for example), state and federal 
funds should not be provided as they only reward and encourage poor leader- 

II - 126 

DR. JOHNSRUD: Let's move to the final topic: "What should be the federal 
and state fiscal policies toward areas experiencing extraordinary problems 
due to rapid growth, long-term decline, or other conditions resulting in 
inadequate fiscal capacity?" 

For example, in the upper midwest, the rapid growth is coming because of 
the energy development. Or, you may want to think about a situation where 
there is a major industry, relatively speaking, in a community. When that 
industry decides to leave, it has an impact on that community. Or, a 
situation that we do experience in this area occasionally is a long-term 
drought. South Dakota, for example, went through some rather severe problems 
in this area. What should be the policy of state and federal governments 
relative to these kinds of conditions that place a strain on fiscal capa- 
city? Again, you have five minutes to jot down your ideas. 

Can I have a show of hands of tables that are ready to report? We will 
start with the table in this corner and go around counterclockwise. 

MR. DON RAPP: When state and federal governments determine the solution 
to a problem, e. g., a significant natural disaster (and we couldn't make 
up our minds whether New York City is a national disaster or a national 
concern) or such a problem as was caused by energy development, or a con- 
sequence of a state or federal action such as in Langdon, North Dakota, 
then fiscal relief should be provided to maintain or reestablish reasonable 
standards of living. 

MR. SHIVELY: We felt that because the causes of these problems are so 
diverse that it is impossible to generalize on local situations, and indi- 
vidual problems should be treated as individual problems. The outside 
forces, private or public, that create the problems, should share in their 
solutions, including planning, technical assistance, leadership and finan- 

MR. WAGGENER: Our group felt that growth and decline in agriculture are 
separate problems and should have separate policies. Federally-assisted 
agricultural programs in the form of low-interest loans and grants should 
exist. Basic economic planning for agriculture is greatly needed. The 
federal government, in areas of rapid growth and energy development, should 
supply funds for initial planning and financing for local alternatives to 
expand the tax base should be supplied. Long-range planning should be 
provided to eliminate single industry economic problems in individual areas. 
Technical assistance is needed for local government in single industry areas, 
including the movement of the federal and state offices. The technical 
assistance should help resolve the decline problem. 

MR. CARL ELLIS: Our table felt that exceptional conditions or circumstan- 
ces warrant flexible programs that share both the risk and the responsi- 
bilities between the alternate beneficiaries, whether it be in relationship 
to drought or energy development or declining economies. 

MR. RYLANCE: My name is Dan Rylance. Responsibility for providing services 
should lie with the public sector. The federal government should bear the 

II - 127 

responsibity for ensuring delivery of public services until the permit pro- 
cess is complete. Then loans or loan guarantees should be made by the 
federal and state governments to finance growth at the local level. 

MR. BERVIG: Our group decided the state and federal governments should 
have plans available to meet unexpected problems. In other words, we're 
going into those areas which should have -- and we should encourage -- long- 
range planning for contingencies. After maximum local tax efforts are 
made, federal sources and state sources should then be made available, 
but only after the local tax effort has taken place. The state and federal 
governments have responsibilities where the causes are not due to the local 
government. A lot of the impact -^e find today is due to the energy policies 
that are beyond the control of the local government. The responsibility 
then lies at a higher level as far as the fiscal action is concerned. 
Existing regional fiscal assistance should be decentralized; for example, 
a drought in our area. A number of us did experience drought conditions. 
Here again, the decentralization means that an organization, such as the 
Old West Regional Commission, might have more expertise, have more of a 
handle on the local conditions where the drought actually exists. In- 
stead of this funding being appropriated or funneled through the federal 
government, it should be put into a lower level that actually knows what 
the local conditions are. Rapid growth areas should be on a pay-as-you- 
go basis. Simply as the area grows, the cost incurred should be paid by 
the businesses, by local government that benefits and other people who 
would reap benefits from that activity taking place. 

DR. JOHNSRUD: If there is one cardinal rule to be followed in any kind of 
conversation, it is that you start on time and you finish on time. You 
and I didn't have a whole lot of control on the starting time this morning. 
We were slightly late, but we are going to finish on time. We are to be 
out of here at 12:30. 

I want to thank each of you for your input this morning. I remind you ihat 
your input will not be lost. I have not collected the last set of card.'. 
If you will leave them on the table, 1 will pick them up. I want to thank 
the recording secretaries, the chairmen, Denise and Bill. One final thing, 
there were some comments, some real differences. This afternoon. Bill and 
I are going to prepare a written summary of this situation. We hope we 
will accurately reflect the tenor of the session this morning. We will 
be going through these cards to get a feel for the other comments that were 
not discussed with the total group, and we will do our best to summarize 
this accurately tomorrow morning. 

At the session this afternoon, you will have an opportunity, if you desire, 
to place on a card your definition of balanced growth. You may want to 
give some thought to that, and maybe after going through the two sessions 
today, you will have some idea on how you would define balanced growth. 

1 want to thank you again for your hard, diligent work, and I think it's a 
rare opportunity when you have this kind of mix of talents and philosophy 
to deal with some pretty tough issues. Tliank you very much. 

II - 128 


SUBTOPIC: Wliat should be the state and federal fiscal policies toward 

areas experiencing extraordinary problems due to rapid growth, 
long-term decline or other conditions resulting in inadequate 
fiscal capacity? 

Impacted areas should receive help from state and federal governments to 
ensure basic needs are met. Coal severance tax -- for areas experiencing 
rapid energy development. Local government should request and administer 
funds -- receive help from higher levels for necessary planning. 

After maximum local tax effort, then state or federal government should 
supply necessary funding or provide methods whereby necessary funding can 
be obtained. 

The state and federal governments should have plans available to meet 
unexpected extraordinary problems with local options for implementation. 

Local communities should be encouraged to do long-range planning and pro- 
vide assistance where requested. 

Rapid growth areas should be put on a "pay-as-you-go" basis. That is, the 
costs to the state and local governments should be documented sufficiently 
to enable billing those who benefit. Declining areas should plan for 
reducing government costs through consolidating local government services 
and/or transferring responsibilities to higher levels. 

Severance taxes should be appropriated to those areas based on impact on 
local services due to energy development. The financial assistance should 
be above the ability of the local community to provide these services -- 
based upon their increased tax base. 

Fiscal policy should be more flexible and decentralized; i. e., fiscal 
reaction capability should be enacted so federal and state governments 
can react to temporary extreme conditions -- "boom" or drought areas -- 
basic policy, however, should be to transfer funds, not design solutions 
to problems which should be done at local level. 

The responsibilities should be the same except for disaster which creates 
extraordinary short-term adjustment needs. 

II - 129 

The federal and state governments should serve as financial guarantors 
and creditors when normal local resources are inadequate in the short 
run. In other words, the federal and state fiscal support should help 
through loans and/or grants --to give long-term financing for short- 
term problems. 

The federal or state responsibilities should be primary. In boom-bust 
cycles of extraordinary development, however, adequate attention should 
be given to the bust cycle rather than concentrating attention on the 
boom cycle. 

No generalization is possible for all problems -- federal and state 
should provide means for local level to expand tax base in case of rapid 
growth, but little can be done for those with long-term decline. Others 
will have to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. 

Each level of government, by joint concern, assume appropriate financial 
risks in assuring identifiable services. Thresholds of risk should be 
identified so that different levels of government assume certain risks at 
different stages in the demand for services. Percent of allocation between 
new needs vs service levels inadequate for present population -- needs to 
be standardized before risks can be defined. 

When the problems created by state and federal policies affect an overall 
area, that level of government should should assume the fiscal responsibility. 

The federal and state government should assist with all the programs 
available to provide the services needed in a growth or a declining economy 
with the local area affected as the main concern. 

State or federal government agencies which cause negative local fiscal 
impact should provide compensation for that impact. Similar provision 
should be made for new industry or declining industry to contribute 
help to mitigate their impact. 

The policy should involve a guarantee of adequate fiscal capacity. 
This assistance can come from state and federal coffers or from industries 
causing the impact. Cooperation from both sources is preferable. This 
cooperation should include input and participation from the areas experi- 
encing the problem. 

II - 130 

If growth is a result of population to achieve satisfaction of a national 
need, then a source of revenue should be devised to return monies directly 
to the impacted community. 

Federal Policy -- Should be restricted to federal and/or disaster programs 
and then only with maximum local input. 

State Policy To be able to respond to extraordinary problems through 

a variety of in-place legislation and programs designed to respond to in- 
adequate fiscal capacity in a timely way. 

Federal funds should be available and, perhaps, industry should be directed 
to help provide some funds for those specific areas of rapid growth such as 
school expenditures (both capital and operational) realizing the future 
benefits to the local community in the future years. 

Stated commitment by state and federal authorities to aid in the solutions 
to the problems of growth, decline, or other extraordinary problems. 

Exceptional conditions or circumstances warrant flexible programs that 
divide the responsibilities. Two extremes should be avoided: free rides 
and no response from the federal or state governments. 

Tough. Too much help from federal or state government may not be good in 
the long run, i. e. , drought-assistance should be given for low interest 
loans to purchase water - hauling equipment or to drill deeper wells, not 
just outright grants that will keep a poor operator in business. Energy 
-- economic and financial aid to the area and provide service of welfare 
and health nature. Area of educational facilities -- funding may be 
raised by taxing the resources such as coal. 

Primary assistance should relate solely to TA with sufficient forewarning. 
Fiscal considerations should relate to needs drawn from local input and 
limited toward short-range objectives. Fiscal considerations for long- 
term developments or depression should be ,i local responsibility with TA 
still available from state/federal levels. 

Federal/state policy should be in direct relationship to impact on the 
national, state or local level. 

II - 131 

Front-end financing should be supplied until a sufficient tax base is 
there to sustain the delivery system. The government shouldn't try to 
solve all of the problems. Neither should local industry or local govern- 
ment be required to provide all of the financial resources to meet the 
needs. In other words, the ultimate consumer can't be expected to pay 
the total bill. 

1. Conditions that occur frequently should be planned for in advance, 
e. g. , drought. 

2. Decline -- plan for growth. 

3. Rapid growth -- plan to handle (plan can be general that will fit 
all localities and then modified according to situation). 

4. The key word for question is to plan with citizen input. 

All of these could be related to fiscal policy. 

Every level must be careful not to attempt to pass buck upward until 

all avenues have been examined. 

State and federal governments have in law and contitutionally an 

obligation to impacted areas. 

Local government and local community must be aware of dangers of "one I 

payroll" economics; and long-range development planning can avoid 

crisis orientation. 

Decent marketing plans and economic planning are 150 years overdue 

for agriculture. 

Federal and state policies could provide temporary fiscal assistance for 
adjustment period in extreme situations; however, should not be artificial 
crutch to continue a non-viable situation. Federal and state agencies 
should support local services provided or required directly or indirectly 
for the agency or its facility. 

When solving the problem is determined by the state and federal government, 
such as a significant natural disaster, a national concern, or as a conse- 
quence of a state or federal action, then fiscal relief should be provided 
to maintain or reestablish reasonable standards of living. 

Each situation will require specific short-term solutions, based on 
available resources (local, state and federal) directed toward long-term 
solutions which will alleviate problems and possibly prevent their 

II - 1.^2 


The state and federal government should provide front-end monies to 
solve local growth problems. 

Decline is local problem needed to be solved by local citizens with 
only state and federal help or planning and technical assistance. 
Agriculture needs help from state and federal governments to solve 
marketing problems. 

The federal and state fiscal policies should be to allow for and provide 
needed funds by way of long-range planning which in most cases can be 
foreseen. Cushion fund set up for stability to an impact area. 

Problem situations require individual solutions based on local conditions. 
You cannot generalize. Each community situation should have available to 
it a team of experts qualified to make recommendations for aid. The local 
authorities should participate all the way and the public must understand 
what is going on. Such solutions are difficult and expensive, but usually 
needed. Such help should be solicited locally. 

Exceptional conditions or circumstances warrant flexible programs that share 
the risks and responsibilities among the ultimate beneficiaries. 

Policies should be made to deal with inadequate fiscal capacity -- on a 
need basis according to priority. 

Long-term, low interest funds should be provided to rapid growth areas by 
federal and state governments. In declining growth areas, funds should be 
provided for in an orderly phase-out of necessary services -- on a federal 
and state level. An insurance program should be developed to provide funds 
when extraordinary circumstances develop. 

1. Prioritize problem areas be it rapid growth, decline, special impact 
(coalstrip), natural disasters, etc. 

2. Determine available funding. 

3. Allocate accordingly. 

Fiscal policy and response should be limited to only those areas where a 
federal or state policy or action has resulted in upsetting the responsive 
capability of local or state government. 

II - 133 

Impact areas -- areas of disaster -- need assistance. However, there is 
a question as to who ascertains the "need" and kind/amount of assistance. 
This could be an invitation to financial disaster for the state or federal 
government . 

Negotiate an improvement schedule (contract) which fixes fiscal and per- 
formance requirements of each party to the agreement. Don't help local 
government "clean house" without attaching strings!.' 
Remember New York City -- 

Rapid growth - Technical assistance to develop a flexible local and 
state tax policy coupled with direct assistance when 

Decline Structural analysis and structural revision of economic 


II - 134 



Leaders : 

Don Erickson 

Mayor, Cheyenne, Wyoming 

Warren White 

National Resources Coordinator 
Office of Planning and Programming 
State of Nebraska 

II - 135 

MR, DON ERICKSON: Good afternoon. I am Don Erickson, Mayor of Cheyenne, 
and I have the opportunity and the pleasure of being your workshop leader 
for this session. Assisting me is Warren White. Warren is the National 
Resources Coordinator for the Nebraska State Office of Planning and Pro- 

Theme four is: Recognizing the impact of the public sector on the geo- 
graphic distribution of economic activity and population. I think that 
from this morning we have some familiarity with the process being used and 
know that no one is going to speak to us. It's an opportunity for all of 
us to speak up on our respective ideas. No idea is a bad idea, but there 
may be some ideas that are better than others. We are trying to consider 
ideas that we can then put into an amalgam report to go to the national 

I don't know how many of you had the opportunity to review the Study Guide 
for this particular theme, but it might be useful for you to turn to pages 
12, 13, and 14. You might browse right now. For those who have looked at 
it, it might be useful to refresh some of the notions that are in that 
Study Guide. As I went through it, it seemed to me that what we are really 
all about in this particular theme is dealing with the ways in which the 
public sector can be more effective in influencing economic growth and 
development in our region and the communities throughout this region. The 
Study Guide pointed out that some of the impacts of the federal government, 
such as the Homestead Act and others, have been basically unintended. 
Consider the influence that the Interstate Highway System has had either 
for improving our community or possibly from the negative point of view, 
where in some communities the Interstate Highway System has provided a 
bypass so that the traffic that normally goes through that town is no longer 
going through that town. 

There is a list of questions that are rather difficult at first to get a 
handle on because they are lengthy and have some words that we may not be 
that comfortable with. Basically, these questions are spelling out certain 
issues for us to keep in mind as we go through the theme for this afternoon. 
I would like to review some of the points or questions that seemed to hit 
me and are important. They start in Question 6: What should the role be 
of the public sector? What are the public objectives? What part should 
these public objectives play for the future in the development of a national 
policy? Should the impact of the expenditures of public funds on the geo- 
graphic distribution of economic activity and population become a greater 
consideration than it is currently? What programs now in existence have 
major unintended impacts? Should they be changed? If so, in what ways? 
What kinds of regulations should be changed and how? Should areas and their 
residents adversely affected by decisions of the federal government receive 
some form of federal adjustment assistance to compensate for the ensuing 
hardship? For example, the closure of a plant that is a result of some 
environmental regulation; and then in our region, the emerging energy policy 
of the federal government as a significant influence on our economic 
activity and population. What adjustments can be made to mitigate the ex- 
isting impact problems and prevent other adverse effects? 

II - 136 

With the Study Guide, the workshop conference planners and those of us 
invited to lead this process have come up with some handles, if you will, 
to stimulate further discussion about the roll of the public sector in 
effecting economic activity. We came up with four subtopics. In preparing 
for this session so we wouldn't have any fiombling around this afternoon, I 
came in shortly after the last meeting and wrote the topics on the black- 
board. Apparently a janitor came in and erased them, cleaning it for us 
so we would have a nice clean slate. So, the good plans I had have been 
erased, but I will indicate to you what the four subtopics are. These 
subtopics are attempts to stimulate your thinking, but you can be broad in 
your thoughts. 

The first subtopic is: How to maximize or minimize federal impacts on 
local economies. 

The second subtopic is: How to create opportunities for communities to 
influence public policy development. 

I will put these on the board as we move along. 

The third subtopic is: How should the public sector influence econanic 
activity in the Old West region communities? 

The fourth subtopic is: How can the public sector complement the private 
sector in developing economic opportunities? 

Those will be our four areas, and I will put them on the board as soon 
as we get into our first topic so that you will have a chance to see the?* 
as well as hear them. We will have these four topics, approximately 
thirty minutes on each one. We need to elect a chairman at each table. 
Use the same process you used this morning. You have ten seconds to elect 
a chairman at each one of your tables. 

Could we have the elected chairmen stand, please, so we know who they are. 
Remain standing. Would you appoint a secretary in your group. Those who 
are secretaries, please raise your hands. After we have finished each 
topic, would the secretaries please collect the idea cards and put them in 
the center of your table, and I will be by to collect them as you move on 
to the various subtopics. Again, the procedure is for you to take about 
five minutes to write down what you consider to be the best solution, the 
best suggestion, the best means to achieve the subtopic that we will dis- 
cuss in a moment. 

Our first subtopic is: How to maximize or minimize federal impacts on 
local economics. We would like the chairman of each group to come up with 
the one best solution. All of your ideas will be put into our final re- 
port that we give in the morning. 

TABLF, 2: Clarification on a term. What do you specifically mean by 
"public sector"? 

MR. ERICKSON: Public sector would be government, local, state or national 
government. Public sector would be government. 

11 - 137 

TABLE 2: Not necessarily like public utilities or "public interest groups" 
or what have you? 

MR. ERICKSON: No, not public interest groups. Governmental entities, 
either the federal government, state government, county government, city 
government, instrumentalities of city government. Let's go ahead now. 

Let's open it up for general discussion now. You have about twelve minutes. 

Let's have the chairmen report. 

TABLE 3: We have come to the conclusion that the recognition of and the 
acceptance by the federal government of local and state uniqueness in both 
the allocation and operation requirements of the federal financing are 

MR. ERICKSON: In other words, the federal government recognizes local 

TABLE 3: And should coordinate with them. I believe that you could pro- 
bably say state, county and local. I think it probably involves all of 
them, the allocation and operational requirements, too. 

MR. ERICKSON: Who wants to be next? 

TABLE 1: Our table decided that to maximize the federal government's role 
should not necessarily be a goal. Federal government's assistance and 
financial aid should be used to bolster the local economy, and the decision 
into which sector of the economy that the federal funds should be used 
should be determined by local agencies (I 'm talking about community agencies) 
in consultation with county, state and regional agencies. 

MR. ERICKSON: What you are saying is that we need to bolster local economy 
through a process that the federal government can facilitate, but it would 
be a local determination, not necessarily a federal determination? 

TABLE 1: Yes. Because it was believed here that many government programs, 
although well -intended, at times seem to spin their wheels or dissipate 
funds by supporting an unnecessary bureaucracy in a region. There are times 
when volunteer, or less expensive agencies or groups, could possibly handle 
the federal funds and do a better job. 

MR. ERICKSON: Work through given structures? 

TABLE 1: That's right. 

MR. ERICKSON: How about this group? 

TABLE 5: In our group, the consensus is that in talking about maximizing 
or minimizing federal impact on local economies, the significant point 
would be to maximize local input in the designing and the development of 
federal policies. Along with that, provide for maximum local control in 

II - 138 

administering those federal policies that, in fact, impact local communi- 
ties on a direct basis. 

MR. ERICKSON: You are speaking along the same lines, assuring that local 
input is available in whatever change is going to occur, whether it be at 
a policy level, at a regulation level; whether it be a new plant, an old 
plant; or whatever the change would be in the community? 

TABLE 5: Yes. There seems to be a long distance between local communities 
and the federal government right now, while at the same time we seem to be 
having quite a proliferation of federal policies that directly affect local 
economies . 

MR. ERICKSON: I'm putting down: Provide a channel of communication. 

MR. WARREN WHITE: Was your second point there, Bob, that the local units 
of government would then administer these programs? 

TABLE 5: Yes. More direct involvement of the local units of government 
in administering those federal policies that directly affect them. 

MR. ERICKSON: All right. This group here. 

TABLE 4: We came up with our one-liner, and it is: Local people should 
be involved in the planning and should increase their capabilities to deal 
with the federal establishment. 

MR. ERICKSON: So we have a theme developing here? 

TABLE 4: Right. 

MR. ERICKSON: More local involvement. And what was the last part? 

TABLE 4: And should increase the capabilities of the community to deal 
with the federal establishment. 

MR. ERICKSON: Good. Over here 

TABLE 2: To continue along th; t theme, what we are going to do is expand 
and require planning with public input and have a consensus, especially in 
the drafting of major programs, before they actually become programs to 
assist long- and short-term impacts that will be felt. Hopefully, the 
planning will start to move from the ground upward rather than from the top 

MR. ERICKSON: That group was talking about a reality check. You would 
like to see some feedback to whoever is developing the policy so that they 
just don't go off half cocked somewhere? 

TABLE 2: Right. And done from the local standpoint, again, to get back to 
the theme of 3 and 4, 1 guess. We would like to see it done early enough 
that it has not been set in cement and then try to crack up the cement to 
get input into it. 

II - 139 

MR. WHITE: You mean grassroots up? 

TABLE 2: That's right. 

MR. ERICKSON: Are there any other thoughts that you have relative to 
those five points as we had them reported? 

Let's go to our second topic. 


II - 140 


QUESTION NO. 1: How to maximize or minimize federal impacts on local 

Allow reasonable flexability in federal programs to reflect different needs 
and capabilities to administer. 

1. Close coordination with existing state and local organizations with 
Federal government. 

2. More control by state and local organizations. 

Minimize federal impacts by placing necessary responsibility at local/ 
state government . 

Hire an expert in "grantsmanship" to research the federal opportunities 
for funds and vrite the applications. Avoid community dependence on 
temporary federal programs. 

Public sector should increase capabilities in dealing with federal programs 
so that funding programs are more widely available (even to small communi- 
ties) and so that state and local governments can have meaningful input 
into the development of policies, programs, and regulations. 

Maximize by having federal studies and plans to encourage the private 
sector to develop an area. 

1. Give maximum control to local government. 

2. Recognize local perspective and desires. 

3. Function is a facilitator or setter of standards. 

Local plans should be implemented at the decision of the local people of 
the district planning -- cities or towns. 

Allow more local latitude in distribution of money packages (block grants), 

II - 141 

Recognition of and acceptance by the federal government of local/state 
uniqueness in the allocation and operational requirement of federal finance. 

Federal recognition and acceptance of local/state uniqueness, of social, 
environmental, political and economic conditions and needs. Grant allo- 
cations criteria based on needs rather than population. 

More emphasis on block grant-type assistance or revenue sharing, with 
emphasis on local needs and local objections. 

A criteria should be established utilizing public hearings to determine a 
list of projects that should be funded and in what order. The timing and 
the alternatives should bo available. Need to know the amount of funds 
available and when. 

Federal grant-in-aid programs should be directed at problem identified by 
local area as being a major concern. Priorities should be set by local 

Be selective. Zero in on those projects which will do the most over a 
long period for the majority. Example, Garrison vs. disaster monies for 
impact areas. 

Federal impacts which negatively affect local economies should be mini- 
mized while federal impacts which aid local economies should be maximized. 
Need clarification as to what impacts made by the federal government 
adversely or positively benefit local economy. Negative impacts should be 
ameliorized by federal fiscal and administrative assistance. 

Design federal programs to support local development efforts, i. e. , 
favorable interest rates, educational support, location of federally 
funded programs such as land and water programs. 

Concentrate on existing projects that have potential of lasting value. 
Regions should have voice in policy. 

Local communication with state government. 

II - 142 

1. Too often the federal impact, as established in available funds, 
dictates the scale of wages, construction costs, etc., as predicted in 
eastern states I 

2. Not enough authority is relegated to local government using federal 
impact programs.! 

Minimize impacts -- military establishments, movements of people, equip- 
ment, etc. Maximize impacts -- government offices into established 
area -- long-term adjustment, etc. 

Require public input/concurrence in drafting of major federal/state 
programs to fully assess short and long-term imputs. (Hopefully, the 
public would move into long-term planning from the ground up.) 

Side effects of federal decisions (whether on transportation, energy, 
health, etc.) should be evaluated in decision-making process to maximize 
beneficial aspects and minimize detrimental effects. 

- Use NEPA to assess economic/social impacts, mitigating measures. 

1. Slow growth vs. boom syndrome. 

2. Seed money (low interest loans) and technical assistance. 
Pre-plan program with locals to be helped to ensure accurate program 
thrust . 

Review program for long-range funding as opposed to one-term grants. 

Community needs assessment to validate and prioritize the greatest needs 
of the local economy and to write proposals for programs that will meet 
those needs. 

Require effective process for public input "before the fact" of federal 
impacting activity -- this must be a meaningful process, not a PR measure. 

By effective understanding of needs and an understanding of effects of 
action and stability of actions taken. 

Impact brought about by federal policy and legislation should include 
policies and other federal resources to implement solutions. Coordination 
with local government should be brought about through a single state agency 
with adequate local input and flexibility. 

II - 143 

Maximizing the role of the federal government or agencies should not necessarily 
be a goal. Minimizing might more appropriately be encouraged by local and 
state requests (diminishing rather than increasing) . 

Federal programs should be outgrowth of explicitly stated needs and wants of 
local, state, and regional areas. In other words, be consistent with local 
conclusions and policies. Priority basis for long- and short-term impacts. 

Grant benefits directly and broadly. The major obstruction to distribution 
presently appears to be that a disinterested, unknowledgeable body, such as 
Congress, will attempt a very specific program to answer a general problem 
which encourages development of an intermediate bureaucracy which intercepts 
much of the benefit, thereby lessening benefits available to local efforts. 

Get local involvement and the best management possible for local community. 

Maximization of the role of federal government should not necessarily be a 
local goal. Federal government should be used to bolster the local economy. 
Decision concerning where such funds should be used should be made by local 
decision-makers, not federal. 

Minimize impact -- note potential for instability. 

Government #1 employer in South Dakota; represents #2 industry (behind 

agriculture) . 

Need diversified economic base -- private sector — develop and foster 

comparative advantages re the local area in the attraction and retention 

of same. 

Private investment capital is the key in determining relative economic 

health -- last year 80% of all investment capital expenditures in U. S. 

was in the public sector -- 20% in private. 



MR. ERICKSON: The second subtopic is: How to create opportunities for 
communities to influence public policy development? 

TABLE 3: Do you mean federal public policy development? 

MR. ERICKSON: Whatever you wish it to be. Has everyone written down one 
idea? Everyone should have an opportunity to explain his individual idea. 

All right. Let's press ahead. We will have our first report from this 

TABLE 1: Our table has a consensus statement. We believe that one should 
take advantage of the built-in mechanisms of economies within our system, 
i. e. , commissions, hearings, visitations of congressional delegates, et 
cetra. Also, utilization and implementation of a feedback system of sur- 
veying constituents regarding basic issues. In other words, a sample 
technique would best reveal the true feelings of the total constituency 
and not just the feelings of the vocal minority on any one particular 
i ssue. 

MR. ERICKSON: Consider total views through modem or contemporary 
scientific sampling or other devices. 

MR. WHITE: In other words, you listen to the squeaky wheel, but the 
smooth running wheel -- 

TABLE 1: That's right. In most instances we feel it's the interest groups. 
Of course, they are more visible and they get the most attention, and wo feel 
at times this does not reveal the true thoughts of people within any one par- 
ticular area. The total constituency in a particular region should be in- 
formed and asked how they feel about any issue. 

MR. ERICKSON: So, in addition to that, use the existing mechanisms we have; 
but we have to find out what they are; what organizations, what public vested 
groups . 

TABLE 1: We have a unique system in the United States where individuals can 
get in touch with responsible people who are normally their neighbors or 
friends who are open to suggestions and comments -- where they can seek 
advice. We fail at times to take advantage of the beautiful attributes of 
the system, the system that was devised so many years ago. If we use the 
system wisely, then perhaps some of the problems that we have today would 
not mushroom or become quite so important as they do at times. 

MR. ERICKSON: Thank you. This table. 

TABLE 3: Same thing, really. 

MR. ERICKSON: Go ahead and give it to us, whatever it may be. 

TABLE 3: It is virtually the same thing. 

II - 145 

MR. ERICKSON: We will just put a check right there. This table. 

TABLE 5: Two points. We concluded that what we need is an educational 
process for local communities that ensures effective two-way communication 
techniques. In other words, the local communities really have available to 
them the techniques to ensure communication that affects policy. Along with 
that would be the assurance that mechanisms are there to properly distribute 
policy information that truly affects policy decisions. 

MR. ERICKSON: Did you get into any discussion on how that could be done? 

TABLE 5: Yes. One idea was local advisory groups, sometimes referred to as 
a task force, made up of local citizenry, and that's a form that can be used 
to communicate with public officials. 

MR. ERICKSON: Like a private development corporation of some sort, or some- 
thing even more unorganized than that? Less formal? 

TABLE 5: I would say less formal in the sense that it involves more of the 

MR. WHITE: Would this be similar to a town hall meeting? 

TABLE 5: Town hall meeting, I think, is probably a more appropriate reference 
to it. 

MR. ERICKSON: How about this table? 

TABLE 4: We agree with the other groups in that local government should be 
involved in planning and development of communication systems that would 
impact local, state and federal policy. 

TABLE 4: We discussed such things as various interest groups within a local 
community, if they could be involved in that area. But there would be other 
policies that would affect them through each state which has a five-year 
planning commission going on. How would state policies and federal policies 
involve local people -- also, federal policies such as the regional commission. 

MR. ERICKSON: Thank you. This group over here. 

TABLE 2 : Our ideas were to direct a system of education and provide resources 
to local groups for planning to assure continuity, communication and uniform- 
ity among the various policies and programs between the state and local levels. 

MR. WHITE: What do you mean by uniformity? 

TABLE 2: Uniformity between all inputs so we don't have fragmented approaches 
to the same problems. 

MR. ERICKSON: A uniform approach; not a uniformity of thought? 

TABLE 2: Not necessarily. 

II - 146 



MR. ERICKSON: Were there any other considerations that came to your minds 
as a result of our review of each of these groups on creating opportunities 
for communities to influence public policy development? 

You know, this is hard work, isn't it? To sit down and try to write what 
we have on our minds about ideas that are important is work. It reminds 
me of being a politician, seeking information from people. It's not easy 
to get information. 

I recall when I took office, I asked my predecessor if he had any sugges- 
tions for me as to how I could deal with my upcoming responsibility. He 
said, "Yes, I do have some suggestions. You're going to have many pro- 
blems that you will have to resolve, but let me give you three bits of 
advice. I will put each bit of advice in a separate envelope, and when- 
ever you have a problem, you can refer to one of these envelopes, and 
that envelope will have the resolution for you." After about two months 
in office, we had a r; ther difficult problem, so I consulted the first 
envelope. The suggestion was, "Blame your predecessor." Well, I 
blamed my predecessor and it worked. It got rid of that problem and 
I moved on. 

A few months later, we got into another difficult sticky-wicket, so I 
opened the second envelope which read, "Blame it on the system." So, I 
blamed it on the system. I managed to get through that bit of turmoil. 
Now, I had one envelope left. Well, the other day I had a mammoth pro- 
blem. The federal government decided it wasn't going to allow the city 
to do a particular thing which I and the rest of the city wanted to see 
done. I decided it was time to consult the third envelope. I opened it 
and the suggestion read: "Prepare three envelopes." 

II - 147 


QUESTION NO. 2: How to create opportunities for communities to influence 
public policy development? 

Public hearings, congressional team visits to the heartland, local 
committees to formulate policies, and built-in feedback system. 

Write, call, talk with your congressman. 

Are we really representing our constituents? Now, we have input from 
special interest groups. We need input on the basic "gutsy" issues of 
our time -- public opinion surveys, public hearings (now poorly attended) 

Mechanism is available through Council of Governments, locally elected 
officials, voluntary organizations, and interest groups. 

Hold public meetings in communities for discussion of issues and pass 
the results on to appropriate government agencies (or hold hearings with 
government officials in attendance). Increase efforts to educate the 
public through the media, in advance. 

To develop long-range goals or plans and use all available resources 
possible to attain these goals. 

Locally we have developed several boards and commissions that represent 
local, state, and county governments. They are composed of people who 
are willing to work. Examples: County Priority Board, Joint Planning 
Groups, Local Government Coordinating Committees. 

Must start with an active community development program and must extend 
it to state and federal levels — both elected and administrative. 

Local, state and region should have established priorities. Combine 
resources and interest to present uniform objectives. Combine private 
sector financing with state, industrial and federal. 

II - 148 

More interest and awareness in current system -- know how it works and 
actively attempt to influence public policy development. 

Local planning must communicate with the local people for support of the 

By our regional and state and local plans. Have local plans developed 
in partnership with public people. 

Utilize sub-state planning districts composed of locally elected officials 
to review and comment before state and federal policy development is 

Allow maximum degree of local input in originally formulating public 
programs -- go to the public to determine needs. 

Create more interest in legislative representation in states. 

Develop a regional distribution of information to community decis on- 
makers, interest groups and the local media on pending policy decisions 
at the national or possibly state level. 

Educate public -- two-way communication. 

Establish educational programs in connection with the ongoing educational 
structures that can acquaint individuals on how public policy decisions 
are made and the job of individuals and groups in influencing such poli- 
cies, i. e., agricultural policy, land-use policy , environmental policy, 

Create from the local level an advisory board with inherent powers to 
help shape the destiny of policy or a public funded project, e. g., 
S.B.A. Advisory Board. 

1. By evaluation of existing programs. 

2. By the input of local member groups. 

II - 149 

After a program is established either by law or administrative direction, 
the policy-makers should seek input from all local segments before final 
regulations are established. 


Establish alternatives that are presented to public. 

Evaluate effect of alternatives. 

Public hearings. 

Revision and refinement. 

Implementation . 

Establish needs. 

The state or feds must do this -- due to their economic "clout." Each 
community should have a future program -- all sectors of community. 
Service to communities needs to be created to alert communities as to 
what policies they need to influence when and in what ways. 

Direct liaison with formal bodies that create public policy -- town 
meetings with legislators and executive branch of government. 

1st -- Communications to the community on proposals. 

2nd — Hearing reactions of area and not just those of public sector. 

3rd -- Plan of action developed by both federal and local. 

Define, analyze, and interpret the community goals. What are the real 
target groups? Who will actually benefit and to what extent? What 
human and natural resources are available? What alternatives does the 
community have to resolve their economic condition? Will the program do 
what it intends to do? How will you know? 

Recommend system of education and provide resources to local groups 
for futuristic planning to insure continuity, coordination, communication 
and uniformity between various plans, policies and programs of state and 
federal levels. 

State and local affairs council. 
Statewide surveys of opinion for 10-year plan. 
Similar planning for cities. 

Teach planning processes as part of citizenship education at all edu- 
cational levels to create a more receptive, informed and participating 
public for planning in future years. 



Develop procedures in policy-making so some continuity can be established 
in developing different programs. 

Public policies are a concern of all communities; therefore, only through 
cooperation, association, and unity can public policy be influenced. 

Local governments should be informed by developing a communication system 
that would relate to all their needs. 

1. Develop multi-county regional plans. 

2. Identify organized groups (public) which should be consulted. 

3. Require Feds to document input from #1 and 2 and show how objectives 
were mitigated. 

1. Develop local awareness of the need and possibility of doing something 
about it. 

2. Close examinations of area programs and assessment of their use and 

3. Common effort of public and private sector. 

Input mechanism and communication circle to both start and ratify public 
policy direction. Maximize the existing system utilization, and increase 
the visability of said system. 

Take advantage of the built-in mechanisms which exist in our system 
(i. e. , commissioners/hearings/visitation of congressional delegates). 
Also, utilize a feedback system of surveying the constituents regarding 
basic issues. (We usually only hear from the special interest groups who 
strongly favor or oppose an issue.) 

Use existing mechanisms . 

II - 151 

MR. ERICKSON: Let's go to our third subtopic which is: How should the 
public sector influence economic activity in the Old West region communities? 

We will start with this table. 

TABLE 1: Our table again developed a statement through consensus. The 
public sector should be a viable force in, one, stimulating local and 
state economies; two, coordinating state and regional problems with federal 
and private investment funds; and, three, pinpointing needs that can be met 
by various diverse funding groups. 

MR, ERICKSON: Did you say private and public? 

TABLE 1: Yes. I said the public sector should be a viable force. 

MR. ERICKSON: This group, please. 

TABLE 3: Through state and local leadership, the public resources should 
work towards long-term stable employment and economic growth in the private 

MR. ERICKSON: Long-term state growth? 

TABLE 3: Long-term stable employment. 

MR. ERICKSON: Stable employment. That's more facilitating, providing 
the climate for it to occur. Okay. This group. 

TABLE 4: The public sector should inform the Old West Region communities 
of the opportunities in development of economic gains that fit the develop- 
mental plan of the Old West Region Commission. 

MR. ERICKSON: So you are saying that the plan that's been developed by 
the Regional Commission should be understood by the public sector and the 
public sector, in turn, be responsive to that plan? 

TABLE 4: Right. 

MR. ERICKSON: Are you ready over here? 

TABLE 5: I think we have a couple of points we would like to make. One 
is that the public sector, through appropriate fiscal support, could in- 
fluence economic activity, and that would be the investment of public 
funds; and the second point that we think was important is that the public 
sector should not abandon its long-range public investment plans for short- 
term economic benefits. An example of this would be agriculture economy 
versus short-term coal development. 

MR. ERICKSON: In other words, let's keep in mind the heritage and the 
value of this particular region such as agriculture, the basic economy, 
and not put that aside for short-term needs? 

II - 152 

TABLE 5: Right. 

MR. WHITE: Bob, do you mean by that capitalizing on the inherent advan- 
tages of the region without foregoing quick gains for tomorrow's losses? 

TABLE 5: Yes. Right. 

MR. WHITE: Okay. 

MR. ERICKSON: How about this group over here? 

TABLE 2: Our feelings are that to basically limit federal initiated 
measures without local or state inputs, federal programs on a whole then 
should actually be a catalyst to assist the local areas on their economic 
activities. We also think that we should use our local and state mechanisms 
for structures or else establish organizations to accomplish or obtain a 
basic end. In other words, there are a number of agencies or groups 
around without going off and creating a myriad of new organizations to 
accomplish a particular program. 

MR. ERICKSON: The public sector continues to facilitate and doesn't 
change the catalyst to enable the communities to achieve what each com- 
munity believes it should achieve? 

TABLE 2: Well, community or state or area-wide, but we think that the 
amount of initiated programs that take place in the public sector or at 
higher levels, namely the federal level, should be limited lest we have 
direct involvement of the federal government at the state or local areas. 

MR. ERICKSON: Are there any other thoughts that were stimulated as a 
result of this round of reports? 

II - 153 


QUESTION NO. 3: How should the public sector influence economic activity 
in the Old West region communities? 

Aid in coordinating state and region problems with feds on prioritizing 
problems and distribution of funds. 

Greatest favor and influence would be to let our economic system work 
with a minimum of public intervention. Phase in a program of gradual 
withdrawal, i. e. , 237 federal bureaus and agencies have been created 
since Eisenhower left office, and fewer than 20 have been eliminated. 

The role of the public sector is to serve the total population by regu- 
lation to provide for the general welfare, safety and health. Insofar 
as economic activities may affect these, the public sector should act. 

Public sector should prepare itself to be a viable force in indicating a 
willingness to cooperate in joint economic overtures in order to stimu- 
late the local and state economies. 

Let their needs and wants that will improve the community be known. 

1. Deal with high growth/no growth cities. 

2. No. 1 and no. 2 --research to determine priority of funding. 

3. Allocate to each state money based on their meeting criteria. 
Define stagnation. Allocate x funds to that place. Define impact 
and fund those projects most needed. 


It should always be aware of the basic, ongoing economy of the community 
and not abandon long-range reality in favor of short-term crisis, e. g., 
support price of food and 

By stating and illustrating the needs of economic activity in the public 
sector to the Old West staff and Executive Board.' 

II - 154 

Public sector should provide financial assistance to permit a local 
community or private enterprise to establish a business climate or a 

The federal government should never attempt this without first getting 
local, state and regional input. This may be done by hearings, meetings, 
conferences, position papers and advisory committees. 

Do better job in what we are doing now. 

Acting as a catalyst: ' 

By pointing out alternatives. 

By articulating on appropriate perspective, e. g., keeping people and 
communities in touch with needs of local, state and nation; developing 
and maintaining a direction; inter- connecting relationships. 

Be an aid -- not a deterrent and be an advisor and communicator, a 
resource for advice and suggestions, especially in long-range planning. 

Local government should be prepared to handle activities and need due 
to economic activities. Therefore, adequate planning should assure that 
needs will be met. 

Through state controlled agencies which are coordinating and in tune with 
needs of local counties and communities -- and Old West Region Commission. 

Utilization of public resources to encourage long-term stable employment 
and economic growth in the private sector. 

If you want mass confusion and no progress on almost any subject, develop 
more studies and advisory groups. Polls may be alright , but in the end, 
one person is going to get the job done. 

By bringing out some problems and opportunities that we may be able to 
solve locally. 



Keep taxes at reasonable level and insure public safety and protect 
quality environment. 

By understanding and coordinating through the political powers and 
structure. Determine how funding decisions are made. 

Through state leadership being in tune with local communities and Old 
West Regional Commission. 

By insisting on having a local input into the planning and development 
of all projects and assuming the responsibilities thereof. 

The public sector should focus its economic activities upon: 
1) those aspects of the economy that the private sector cannot or will 
not become involved; 2) those aspects of the economy which reduce im- 
balances within the system; and 3) those aspects of the economy that are 
so critical to the national defense or the public well-being that con- 
trolled/regulated governmental economic input is necessary. 

Beneficial, long-term changes or activities should be turned over to 
state and local segments for application and implementation. Detrimental 
or negative impact activities should be carried out in such a way to 
stabilize economic activities in given area. 


Use public meetings and questionnaires to determine public feelings. 

Use public consensus to formulate regional/state plans, and push these 

directly on congressmen and federal agencies. 

Get public to prioritize needs. 

Review federal system of public input in planning. 

Positively -- minimize uncertainty in permitting process that controls 
timing and locational siting of industry. Increase efficiency in public 
service delivery systems. 

Public sector should inform the Old West Region communities of opportuni- 
ties in development of economic gains that fit standards set up in the 
Old West Region. 

II - 156 

Through state and local leadership the public resources should work toward 
long-term stable employment and economic growth in the private sector. 

Improving information relating to economic opportunity to state and 
local government. 

Insure that the economic growth prereqs are available - capital, com- 
munication, transportation, resources. 

Provide human resource service -- education, training, etc. 
Create economic atmosphere favorable to growth. 

Limit federal initiated measures without local/state input. Federal 
programs should act as a catalyst to assist local economic activities. 
Use established local/state mechanisms and structures. 

The public sector should be a viable force in 1) stimulating local and 
state economies; 2) coordinating state and regional problems with federal 
and private investment funds; and 3) pinpointing needs that can be met by 
various diverse funding groups. 

provide and utilize mechanisms and resources for planning activities 

at local, regional and state levels -- give statutory and executive 

level support to such mechansims through regulations, funding, laws, 


by creating coalitions in state or regional interest — a political 


II - 157 

MR. ERICKSON: Our last item is: How can the public sector complement 
the private sector in developing economic opportunities? 

I don't know if you noticed, but as we went through our discussion of 
each one of the topics, we had a tendency to talk about some philosophical 
values and maybe some platitudes of do's and don'ts. On the next item, 
I'd like for you to try to specify some specific things that can be done, 
and try to put aside, "It should be this way." Identify a specific sug- 
gestion or solution of how the public sector can complement the private 
sector in stimulating whatever -- complementing, promoting, fostering, 
whatever words we have been using here in the last three discussions. 
State how the public sector can complement the private sector in develop- 
ing economic activities in this region. Take the time to think of a 
specific solution. 

At this time, we would like each person to read his individual idea and 
explain it a little bit rather than having the chairman read all the 
ideas . 

Do we have any group that is ready? 

TABLE 1: Do you want the summary statement first and individual state- 
ments? Is that how you're going to operate this? 

MR. ERICKSON: Each individual will not be asked to speak to his individ- 
ual idea. I just wanted to make sure that in each group the individuals 
did talk about their individual ideas. All you have to do is give your 
summary statement of the best idea for the group. 

TABLE 1: The question: How can the public sector influence or complement 
the private sector in stimulating the economy? The basic theme or the 
abstract would be by research, promotion, finance and implementation. 
The statement is that the public sector can provide investment tax credits 
and expand management assistance activities, provide technical assistance 
and promotional help, and encourage investments in those sectors of the 
economy that will enhance the quality of life in a region or place. 

MR. ERICKSON: You don't want to lose sight of the quality of life that 
we have? 

TABLE 1: No. We are very much concerned about our cultural heritage. 
We believe that change is inevitable, but at least in the state of North 
Dakota, we feel we have a unique way of life. We want to preserve our 
way of life and modify it, but with change. We want to direct change to 
enhance the quality of life. 

MR. ERICKSON: That's probably the real dilemma we're facing, isn't it, 
in this energy exploration region? This group. 

TABLE 3: To summarize, we came up with the correction of over-control 
and regulation by the federal government and to stimulate the free enter- 
prise system with economic incentives. 

II - 158 

MR. ERICKSON: Do you have an example of wliat you mean by over-control? 

TABLE 3: We varied a little. Osha, your lEPA, gas regulation. Not all 
of us agree that each one of those was over-regulated. I didn't. 

MR. ERICKSON: So given the circumstances, a particular regulation that 
has been developed for the nation as a whole may not be applicable to a 
given location? 

TABLE 3: On the farm, there are regulations on how much we, the farmers, 
can grow and how much we can't. I think there are controls on everything 
that we do. We can't get up in the morning without some form of a con- 
trol; businesses are under the same circumstances. They just run into 
so much red tape with controls that it 's gotten to the point, for instance, 
that when a man goes to the doctor, the doctor refuses to fill out his 
insurance forms unless he charges him more because it's such a hassle and 
so much government red tape. That's a type of control that I'm concerned 
about, too. 

MR. ERICKSON: Could you amplify on the kinds of tax credits you were 
discussing in this group? 

TABLE 1: I have a concern regarding investment tax credit. The key 
indicator of the relative health of an economy is centered around the 
level of private capital investment. In the last thirty years we have 
seen a flip-flop of the relative level of private capital investment 
versus public capital investment. In 1976, 80 percent of all capital 
investment in the United States was by varying levels of government, and 
twenty percent was in the private sector. I think that we must encourage 
private capital investment if, in fact, we are going to have the private 
sector developing employment opportunities. Whether you like it or not, 
you know that is the lifeblood of our great country. The trend is scary, 
and I think that's the key. 

MR. ERICKSON: Is therc^ another comment over there? 

TABLE 1: I had a tax credit as far as the use of gasohol, excusing the 
federal tax. 

MR. ERICKSON: Let's go on to the next group. 

TABLE 5: Is this the last question? 

MR. ERICKCON: This is the second to the last question. 

TABLE 5: In defining ways in which the public sector could complement 
the private sector, one specific way would be to allow the local public 
political subdivisions to provide for tax increment financing. Another 
way would be for the public sector to provide -- and I think it was 
duscussed a little bit earlier -- technical assistance and capital assis- 
tance to help business enterprises in the region. 

II - 159 

MR. ERICKSON: Capital construction-type of assistance or any type of 
capital outlay? 

TABLE 5: Any type of capital, I think, would be broad enough. Vocational 
education would be another complement to the private sector to assure 
adequate labor force within our region. 

MR. ERICKSON: Is there a particular type of vocational training or 
technical training that was spoken of in your group? 

TABLE 5: No, not a specific one. Along that line, though, a regional 
approach in the public sector to sum up the private sector's problems, 
and what we are saying here, as an example, would be the veterinary pro- 
blem we have in our region. While the sector was not able to respond 
in the sense of creating the schools for the education of veterinarians, 
the public sector, through the Old West Regional Commission, has sort of 
taken on that problem and is trying to develop a program whereby we can 
enhance the number of veterinarians in the region. Another one would be 
to combine the levels of public sector permitting processes to assure 
timely, orderly and efficient public decisions on siting of industry in 
the area. 

MR. ERICKSON: Was there any discussion as to how that could be facilitated? 

TABLE 5: Yes. You can combine some of the levels of permitting processes, | 
state, federal and local, create uniformity in the criteria for permitting '■. 
or obtaining a permit by industry in the region. 


MR. ERICKSON: By theory, that would be jointly generated by the various 
levels, local, state and federal? 

TABLE 5: Yes. 

MR. WHITE: You mean like a one-stop permit place where the A's, B's 
and C's and X, Y and Z's of each would be in one permit? 

TABLE 5: Not necessarily a one-stop permit, but so there's unifoirmity in 
the criteria each level of government is looking at. We are finding in 
many instances there's extreme duplication in the type of information 
that's being requested by one type of government over another one, and the 
formats of the way the information is wanted is ten different ways. Uni- 
formity in the criteria and some combining of levels in the permitting 

MR. ERICKSON: Thank you. This group over here. 

TABLE 4: We just came up with public sector responsibility for research, 
fiscal studies, training and management assistance and some financing. 
Private sectors should be responsible to implement those needs as reques- 
ted by the public sector. 

MR. ERICKSON: In other words, the initiative for the research and the 

II - 160 

financing would follow a specific request from someone in the private 
element? Is that what you are saying? 

TABLE 4: I will let some of the people in this group respond. 

MR. ERICKSON: Anyone want to give an example? 

TABLE 4: Not necessarily only in response to, but the basic function of 
the public sector would be analysis rather than implementation. The 
private sector would be mainly for implementation. 

MR. ERICKSON: VVhat should happen once that analysis has been developed? 

TABLE 4: If there are public sector services that need to be applied 
(some financing, technical assistance, management assistance, that type 
of thing), that again would fall within the public sector; but the actual 
implementation of economic development would be through the private 

MR. ERICKSON: You would see that analysis, though, including local 
individuals in the private sector? 

TABLE 4: Yes. 

MR. ERICKSON: It wouldn't be independent? 

TABLE 4: We have another comment. To give a specific example of this 
tax incentive was mentioned. There's a bill that's somewhere in the govern- 
ment right now on the federal level to make Indian Reservations similar to 
Puerto Rico, and it's a tax incentive situation for industry to move in. 
I think it's Representative Pressler that put this bill together in South 
Dakota. I see that as an excellent move in creating incentives, so then 
the free market would work, and throughout all of this documentation we 
have the plight or disadvantages of the Indians on the reservations. I 
think that's one way of getting at it. 

TABLE 1: Where is that bill now? 

TABLE 4: I tried to get a fix on that last week and couldn't get an 

TABLE 1: Is it out of committee? 


I think that's about where it is; it not being generated any- 

MR. ERICKSON: Let's go to the last group over here. 

TABLE 2: Basically, we are saying the federal programs should be modified 
and guided to ensure both economic and social upgrading and well-being by 
providing reasonable, predictable, consistent and understandable long-term 
policies for programs. In other words, we are looking for a better under- 

II - 161 

standing of our relations as a constituency, something that follows the 
basic legislative intent, advice on the way regulations are written, and 
implementation by private and public sectors on any type of economic activity. 

MR. ERICKSON: You are saying the policy should have long-term, lasting 
impact that comes as a result of something? 

TABLE 2: No, it doesn't necessarily have to have long-lasting impact. It 
has to be consistent. It has to be reasonable, predictable and under- 
standable. What we are looking for is that clarification of regulations 
or intents from the public sector. 

MR. ERICKSON: Do you have any examples or illustrations to build on that 
in your group? 

TABLE 2: Quite a few of them. A lot of the regulations that come out 

are not consistent with the intent as the way they were passed in Congress. 

I think we can all identify with that to some degree. 

MR. ERICKSON: Legislature intention not be lost? 

TABLE 2: Yes. That we have some type of front-end activity -- communi- 
cations, coordination, financial -- finances should be provided as a trade- 
off between the public and private sectors. I call them front-end activity 
for want of something better. We have already mentioned predictable pro- 
grams. Under predictable, we were referring to coal leasing, for example. 
At least the private sector should know what the intent is, and I think 
you can expand from there, but that's the gist. 

I have one point. You mentioned social well-being. Maybe I was a minor- 
ity in the whole thing, but I feel that the public and private sector 
should be complementing one another on any kind of economic development 
and making sure that such development or economic activity has a 
human face to it. In other words, they shouldn't get completely carried 
away with everything in terms of a materialistic kind of value. We 
thought about people when we were talking about economic activity, so 
there was a social well-being in the original statement that he made which 
you don't have up there. 

MR. ERICKSON: Don't allow our technology to dimish our human dignity? 
Something to that effect? Are you saying that if we get too materialistic, 
we have to keep in mind how it's influencing people? 

TABLE 2: Yes. When we talk about economic development, we shouldn't just 
be talking about how many dollars we can bring in or how many dollars is 
the job going to have in terms of pay or whatever. There are more im- 
portant things. There is more than that to a job or economic development. 
Obviously, that is important, too. 

MR. ERICKSON: Economic development vis-a-vis human development. We are 
also looking at the needs of people in addition to their jobs, their income? 

II - 162 

TABLE 2: Yes. When E. F. Schumacher came through here last winter, he 
mentioned the concept of right livelihood. I think that's a piece of 
what I'm getting at, although I think that's rather trite. That should 
be realized as one person's point of view and not necessarily others'. 

MR. ERICKSON; Anyone else have a minority view that may not have been 
expressed? If you wish to do that, please do it now. We have a moment 
or two. 

We have been asked to do one more thing before we conclude this session, 
and that is for you to write your definition of balanced growth on the 
back of your card. Are you interested in a discussion at your table 
about your perceptions of that definition? Would you like to take a 
little time to do that, or do you want to close it out at this point? 
Close it out? All right. 

I would like to thank you. Warren and 1 found the conversation pro- 
vocative in many ways, and we have the responsibility now to try to 
synthesize that into a summary report for tomorrow morning. When we 
give the report, we hope it will reflect the views that were presented 
this afternoon. If you feel that we have gone off on a tangent, there 
will be an opportunity after I give the report for you to add or to 
delete whatever you wish. 

I would like to remind you that this evening at 6:15 there will be a 
social hour. It's a no-host social hour. And at 7:00 we will have a 
dinner. The dinner speaker is Mike Koleda, the Director of the White 
House Conference on Balanced National Growth and Economic Development. 

We will adjourn this meeting, and you are free to leave as soon as you 
finish your definition. Thank you. 

II - 163 



How can the public sector complement the private sector 
in developing economic opportunities? 

Designate public funds through responsible bodies for ongoing construc- 
tion processes. Example: SBA, FMHA and FHA loans. 
Approach a problem on a regional basis rather than a local basis. 
Example: Vet school for all the Old West communities. 

Provide technical assistance to the private sector as needed -- grant 
application assistance, advice as to federal standards, laws, etc; suggest 
solutions that have worked elsewhere for similar problems. Provide seed 
money through federal programs. 

By helping to establish policies such as favorable tax policy, promotion 
of tourism, guaranteeing loans, providing skilled labor, supporting good 
transportation and communication systems, assisting in obtaining federal 
grants to stimulate employment and markets for products within the region 
and zoning, water or sewer. 

By local levels of government exploring and evaluating the needs of the 
private sector. Pre-planning would be essential with adequate input from 
private sector. 

By making sure that public -- now and in the future -- is considered 
adequately. Appropriate economic activity is not just economic activity. 
Point out that it goes beyond measuring material goods -- includes moral 
purpose. More than just economic value or materialistic value — also 
values like sense of community, sharing, freedom, creativity, compassion, 
etc. Right livelihood -- E. F. Schumacher views; not everything should 
or has to be judged first and foremost on economy. Is it meaningful to 
the people? Does it help them reach fullest potential? Is it environ- 
mentally compatible? 

I would work with private sector to survey labor force and improve 
vocational schools to prepare labor for needs of private sector. 

The public sector relates their needs for development through planning 
and the private sector provides the materials and skills to implement 
those needs. 

II - 164 

The public sector can provide a planner as to what development should 
take place in each area. The private sector will take over at that point. 

Work jointly in planning, turn over execution and implementation to pri- 
vate sector. Keep low profile in numbers of people and facilities by 
using existing private sector skills. 

1. Let the free enterprise system work on its own merits. 

2. Avoid over- regulation. 

3. Correct current areas of control. 

4. Free enterprise should be competitive without government handouts. 

1. Establish communication link as to goals and programs of each. 

2. Establish the basic realm of private/public obligation in view of 
any impending input as a result of economic development or activity. 

Establish benefit guidelines or policies for private sector to work in, 
and assist in accomplishment within these guidelines, etc. 

Additional programs like Farmers Home Administration -- low interest 
loans to private industry. Such programs would lend themselves to stim- 
ulating long-term private employment and stable private economic growth. 

Programs such as CETA are speedy and have good intentions; however, poor 
monitoring on the fed's part allows poor work habits because they be- 
come pure welfare. Rules and regulations ought to re-enforce the law 
but often changes the intent. Although the government should be flexible, 
it should also more realistically monitor its programs. Rules and regs 
should be simpler. Multiple-year funding. Correcting of the above will 
assist the private sector. 

E.P.A. requirement of dust control in grain elevators — forced compliance 
without understanding of total effect. Need research as to cause and 
effect. Caused considerable problems before effective solutions were 
found, such as when dust contained added hazards and how to dispose of it. 

Public sector give private some incentive to operate on its own. 

II - 165 

Explore opportunities where the private sector can assume the burden of 
providing many public services. Minimize federal regulation -- unregulate 
where possible. Explore greater opportunities for use of public/private 
joint ventures in addressing economic concerns. 

Governmental agencies could provide technical assistance to the private 
sector, i. e. , engineering expertise, economic advise, and ideas such as 
the gasohol project. 




Identify regional or place potentials and problems; 

Encourage private investments in those sectors of the economy which 

will enhance the quality of life in a region or place; 

Provide infrastructure and seed money for new industries within a 

region or place; 

Educate a workforce that is appropriate for century thru jobs in a 


1. Public sector should direct resources -- such as technical assistance 
and capital to complement needs of private enterprise. 

2. When the area needs are defined, such as needs for a public facility, 
school, water system, or a business enterprise, the public sector 
should assist in finding the necessary financial resources. 

Research. Channel monies to state development agencies to fund private 
business development in terms of best fit industries, given the peculiar- 
ities of each state's economy, to help rationalize the long-term effect 
of uncontrolled economic activity. Transportation. 

(1) Let the free enterprise system work on its own and avoid over- 

(2) Correct current areas of over-control. 

(3) Allow government agencies to join in and be part of local groups, 
e. g. , chambers, industrial development, etc. 

Provide investment tax credits for new and existing businesses. 
Expand the management assistance activities of SBA and lend such talents 
as the ACE/SCORE/univ. talent pool of students and faculty. (80% of all 
new small businesses disappear within five years. Two primary causes: 
poor management and undercapitalization.) 

Federal direction should be modified and guided to incur both economic and 
social upgrading by providing reasonable, understandable, predictable and 
consistent, long-term programs. 

II - 166 

Simplify process. Eliminate uncertainty of the public permitting process 
which controls siting of economic activity in a community. Public sector 
combine levels of permitting that overlap jurisdiction. 

Promotion, research, finance and implementation. The public sector can 
spread the risk and pick up some of the front-end expenses to enable 
economic development within the free enterprise system, e. g., the Center 
for Innovation assists private innovative development; the Center for 
Economic Development looks broadly at economic feasbility of various pro- 
jects. The Bank of Cooperatives financed sugar beet plants, etc. 

By research, promotion, finance, and implemention. The public sector can 
provide investment tax credits and expand management assistance activities; 
provide technical assistance and promotional help; and encourage invest- 
ments in those sectors of the economy that will enhance the quality of 
life in a region or place. 

1. S.B.A. --loans complement private sector. 

2. Lift restrictions on industries when it would be an advantage to 
the public. 

II - 167 


licoiioinic giowth which does not ait j t ic ial ly d isiupt the v;irioiis elements 
within our society. Providing new employment opportunities at a reasonable 
rate, without adversely impacting on the rate of inflation, the social 
character and physical environment of a region and/or locale. 

Balanced growth should be that level of development which can be sus- 
tained by local infrastructures on a self-financed basis without excep- 
tional boom and bust. Could be defined as 10% per year in terms of overall 
population, although employment cculd rise faster at first to absorb 
unemployed and/or underemployed. 

Combine levels of public sector permitting process to assure timely, 
orderly, efficient public decision on siting of industry in the region, 
states and local communities. Uniformity of criteria. 

Reasonable consideration of reality. 

Balanced growth is growth in a community that needs diversification 
for its well-being. 

Balanced growth relates to production that can be related to the 
economic development of regions. 

Balanced growth is growth which is consistent with the desires of the 
people and the economic conditions of the area. 

Appropriate economic development in the sense of E. F. Schumacher's 
definition of that term. People are considered first and foremost. Growth 
for growth's sake is not necessarily good. 


1) guarantee long-term prosperity and stable economy; 

2) provide full employment and meaningful work for people; 

3) encourage labor intensive activities; 

4) maximize the share of economic benefits by people in region; 

5) equalize distribution of economic benefits within region; 

6) provide best possible support for psychological, cultural and 
spiritual development of people in region. 

Low government and legislative involvement on critical issues as 
determined by local and state needs. Balanced growth also means stability, 
planned progress and evolution of lifestyle. 

Economic and qualitative factors so meshed as to ensure maximum quality 
of life from a point of view of security and a clean, wholesome environment. 

Employment opportunities to improve or maintain a person's lifestyle. 

Growth which balances need for increased economic activity, jobs, etc. 
against desire of jieople for maintaining an environmentally sound quality 
of life. "Growth on our terms." 

II - 168 

Balanced growth should reflect an orderly transition on all growth 
patterns. For instance, on energy development, provisions should be made 
to allow for quality of life always being the #1 priority. 

A clear, consistent, understandable, and coordinative effort between 
federal, state and local governments as well as the local populus and 
private economic sector to provide a basic direction for social, economic 
and physical development. 

Balanced growth and population mean that all areas would be developed 
in the same manner. I don't believe this is possible to a perfect degree. 
Controlled growth might be possible to some degree. 

Balanced economic growth should be growth leading to long-term employ- 
ment and stability within the private sector while maintaining and en- 
hancing the quality of life now existing in the Old West Region. 

A growth that does not affeit the well-being of our present status quo. 
A growth that will prove to be of positive benefit to the general welfare 
of all people and our environment. 

Public and private working together for common goals. 

Balanced growth should exemplify, as close as possible, the ideal 
situation of man living in his own environment with as little influence 
being exerted upon him by government which may deprive him of his rights 
of life. 

Coordinated growth in which the public sector and private sector combine 
efforts to achieve mutual gains in stimulating the economy, reduce unem- 
ployment, improve the environment, etc. 

The development of a "whole" economy of an area that takes into con- 
sideration social, economic, cultural, and physical diversities, or 
uniqueness of a region or place. 

It takes into consideration both the economic and social values and in 
making financial and other resources available -- to the extent possible 
makes sure that the local people are not put in the position of having to 
select between social benefits vs financial benefits. 

Is an increase in per capita supply of and purchasing power for goals 
and service that are uniform among regions, states or areas under consid- 

Growth that has an equal upgrading effect on all localities be it in 
terms of material, money, standard of living, education; a growth that 
will utilize all resources natural and otherwise. 

A process of assuring adequate material and social well-being to the 
public in a geographically defined area. The process is complemented by 
the public sector representing the "public interest" and the private 
sector representing the wants of the public as individuals. 


. Formally, a development of an economy (at any level) that is character- 
ized by no one sector growing any slower or faster than any other. This 
makes essentially no sense in the Old West Region. Growth occurs for 
economic reasons -- and the effect of that is that one sector will grow 
at an abnormally rapid rate. This creates lags in other sectors. Growth 
and decline are the function of capitalistic economies — so — balanced 
growth only comes with rationalized central planning. 

There really isn't such a thing. Balanced growth, with economic 
influences, human tendencies and weaknesses, and a variety of other 
factors is rather like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. We'd 
love to find it, but no one has to date. 

Achieving an increased, spendable income for persons within a com- 
munity, state or region with little or no detrimental effect on the 
"quality of life." In fact, if possible, such growth should be accom- 
panied by an improved quality of life as represented by community. 

II - 170 




David Osterhout 
Vice President 
Doane College 
Crete, Nebraska 

Dan Sullivan 


Community Development Authority 

Casper, Wyoming 

Tom Ch.irlton 

State 1 lanning Coordinator 

Cheyenre, Wyoming 

n - 171 

MR. OSTERHOUSE: Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to start. I think you 
know the procedure pretty well, so I imagine you are aware of the fact that 
this would work best if we would fill the tables we have. 

I would like to introduce our coworkers here at the table. On my right is 
Tom Charlton, who is a Sectional Leader of the Natural Resource and State 
Planning Office of the State of Wyoming. Tom, would you stand? 

On my left is Dan Sullivan, who is Executive Director of the Wyoming Com- 
munity Development Authority at Casper. Our job is to get your thoughts 
and try to report on them tomorrow. 

As we drove in from the airport yesterday, I was greatly impressed by the 
blocks of new houses and buildings. It was easy to conclude that Bismarck 
is booming; obviously, more than normal growth that we see many places. 
Last night I asked a number of local people the reason for this boom. I 
got answers like, new energy companies moving in, coal and oil, and new 
headquarters of commercial enterprises. Almost everybody mentioned the 
fact that in the State Capital, there was growth because of growth of 
government. I guess that's not new to any of us. We know that's true 
anywhere . 

Now, the theme for this Group No. 5 in your study guide deals with assess- 
ing the inadequacies of government structure and processes. As you know, 
from our meetings this morning, sometimes these questions are difficult to 
get in a definitive form. They told us at a meeting yesterday that our 
job here is to be both diplomatic and autocratic and to keep it rolling 
timewise, so I am going to try to do just that. Someone defined a meeting 
as a place where two or more people get together to solve problems. I 
like the definition that a meeting is a place where people learn how to 
do something they already know how to do but don't have time to do because 
they are attending too many meetings. We are going to try to simplify 
some of this today. 

I think I better stop ar this point and admit that after reading the study 
guide, I wasn't so sure that I truly understood what some of our questions 
should be. I asked som(! of the people in charge of the conference what 
was expected. They saiil the guide is word-for-word the way it came from 
Washington as preparation for the White House conference. That made me 
feel a little isit better because, maybe, sometimes we aren't supposed to 
understand everything that comes from Washington. For our purpose here 
this afternoon, we selected four topics or questions that we want to give 
you a chance to discuss. 

These four questions arc on the blackboard, and we have paraphrased them 
in a sense. Do wc want government assistance to play a major role in our 
development? At what level is government most effective? How should gov- 
ernment exert its influence and how should aid be distributed? If we are 
going to have government, aid, do we want it in the form of block grants 
or do we want program grants? 

II - 172 

So let's start with the first one. Do we want the government to play a 
major role in shaping policy for our development and growth? Perhaps 
that is a little naive because we know that government is doing it at all 
levels and in lots of different ways. Many of us complain about the gov- 
ernment doing too much or interfering with regulations, raising taxes. Yet, 
every time we get together, we expect to ask the government for more assis- 
tance. So let's face up to this question first. Perhaps, a better way to 
state the question is: How big a role do we want the government to play? 
Our first procedure is for you to introduce yourselves around the table so 
you know who you are. Let's take a minute for that. 

Now that you have introduced yourselves, let's select a chairman. We will 
give you about fifteen seconds to do that. After you have selected your 
chairman, will the chairman please stand up at each table. Thank you. 
Now, each chairman appoint a secretary. 

Everyone at the tables put on the pink card Theme No. 5, Topic No. 1. 
Then you can paraphrase the first question -- something about how much gov- 
ernment aid we want so we can identify what the question is. Then go ahead 
and write your idea that relates to that. We are interested in new ideas 
as well as just answers to these questions, but be as specific as you can. 
The chairman gets to summarize and put the best idea before the group. We 
have twelve minutes. 

Let's start back by the door. Let's listen to his report. 

TABLE 1: The report is very simple. It's about as simple as the question. 
Do we want government to play a major role in shaping policy for our growth 
and development? We reached the consensus that we do. 

MR. SULLIVAN: Could you elaborate on that? 

TABLE 1: We didn't quite figure out what government you are talking about. 
Some people suggested the one that is closest to our home and the heart. 
I think we felt that government does have to play a part on state, local or 
the national level and that there should be a better mechanism for proce- 
dures established and accountability of those procedures and the auditing 
procedures. Simply put, we are talking about the paper work aspect. We 
are talking about the fact that there is too much paper work and that it 
doesn't get to the gut issue of what you are trying to do. The people who 
are doing it never are held accountable. That's what we want to see. 

MR. SULLIVAN: We can say that you want it simplied but more responsible? 

TABLE 1: That's fine. 

MR. OSTERHOUT: Let's have the table in the corner. 

TABLE 2: It was pretty well the consensus here -- yes, at various levels, 
with one being a check on the other. 

II - 173 

MR. OSTERHOUT: Next table right here. 

TABLE 3: You can call us the table with the poet-in-residence. 

The government would be great 
Without the bureaucracy. 
Let's cut back on bull 
And reshape the democracy. 

MR. OSTERHOUT: Can you paraphrase that? 

TABLE 3: We thought that govenment is needed. Where it can be made less 
complex, it's better. It shouldn't be forgotten at any level, particularly 
the local level, and the state should be an arbitrator and facilitator. 

MR. SULLIVAN: What was the first part of that? 

TABLE 3: Don't forget any level of government and local determination. 
Local determination, less complex government. 

MR. OSTERHOUT: Less bull. 

MR. SULLIVAN: Less bull, more beer. 

TABLE 3: The state should be the facilitator and arbitrator, 

MR. SULLIVAN: One thing you might do if you want to make sure some of 
that gets into the record is to write out your more complex answer and 
see that it gets up here. 


Let's take this table. 

TABLE 4: We thought the appropriate role for the federal government would 
be to promote the development of ])olicy at all levels, that all levels of 
government should be involved in ijolicy development. There are some 
things, however, which are more aiipropriately done at the federal level 
because of that certain kind of perspective. That might be true of state 
and local government, too, but geierally, we felt that bottom-up kind of 
policy development was the best. 

MR. OSTERHOUT: Can you paraphras 3 what you have? 

MR. SULLIVAN: Simply that they s lould promote the development of policy 
within the government and that it should flow from the bottom to the top. 

TABLE 4: 1 think you havt to add that certain kinds of policies are better 
suited to certain levels nf government. The perspective that a state has, 
for instance, might be better than the local perspective or better from 
the state's point of view, certainly. There sliould be some recognition of 
perspcct Lvc. 

II - 174 

MR. OSTERHOUT: In a sense, you are working into our next topic in the 
level of govenment. Obviously, it's interrelated. 

TABLE 4: I think that the decisions should be made at the lowest practi- 
cable point. 

MR. SULLIVAN: It would be the better decision in the long run. 

TABLE 4: What's feasible for the local government should be done there. 

MR. OSTERHOUT: Table No. 5. 

TABLE 5: 1 would like to have everybody know that 1 am chairman by a 
vote of six to one, mine being the dissenting vote. We have an answer 
which we feel is just about as general as the question. Our summary state- 
ment is as follows: As much as possible, local government should do the 
necessary -- and underline necessary -- policy decision-making. Ihere are 
some areas (a larger area or statewide) , however, in which policy decisions 
should be on a higher level for uniformity. 

MR. SULLIVAN: Wherever the policies can be made at the local level, that's 
where they should be made; and they should only go to a higher level of gov- 
ernment by default? 

TABLE 5: Or for need of more uniformity. 

MR. SULLIVAN: Right, because it cannot be made at the local level? 

TABLE 5: Correct. 

MR. OSTERHOUT: Now, we have the last table over here. Table 6. 

TABLE 6: Ours is a very simple answer. We just said yes. Then we proceeded 

to complicate the situation and ask another question. The essential question 

is: Which level for which purpose? And we will agree with the other state- 

MR. OSTERHOUT: The last one is yes. Obviously, the first two questions are 
very much interrelated and, in a sense, could have been one. 

II - 175 



Should government play a major role in formulating jiolicy 
for our development and growth? 

Ideally, y<is. The present system of federal, state and local government, 
however, s(?ems incapable of shaping policy for our development and growth. 
Perhaps, a reconstituted government along the lines of regionalism with some 
form of Articles of Confederation system would best serve present needs and 
future problems. 

Government it all levels must take lead, especially overall planning for 
development . Ilxperimental projects -- activities that cross private lines 
activities for good of public. 

It is necessary for government to play at least a nominal role in shaping 
policy for development and growth. The government should provide a frame- 
work for cooperative efforts at various levels (city, county, state, etc.)- 
The government should promote the development of a policy without selling a 
particular policy. 

In a participating democracy the formulation of policy -- E Pluribus Unum -■ 
is indeed a proper role for government. The question is -- which level 
of government for which purpose is best suited for the job. 

Government lias to play ;i role in shaping policy. As much as is practical, 
local government should assume the major role, but in- some areas, where 
uniformity is needed, higher levels of government must be involved. 

Government should not have to do more than 20% cf the work in ecoromic 
development. Less control and more initiative en the part of the private 
sector is desirable. 

Yes. Wliat government? State -- more involved, responsiveness and 

To the extent tliat government is responsive to the needs and desires of the 
locality in question. 

II - 176 

Yes -- only when the magnitude of development indicated an identifiable 
need for government involvement. 

What government? State and local -- yes. Federal -- No. 

Yes, but must have better accountability and auditing procedures that deal 
with both mechanisms and personnel (governmental) . 

Local government should organize ways for citizens to identify their own 
needs and shape local policy and find ways to deal with their own needs as 
far as possible. Citizens from an area should be involved in determining 
the area needs and development process, likewise, citizen input should deter- 
mine state policy. 

Government must play a part in planning for growth and development; other- 
wise, growth and development will be too haphazard. All levels of govern- 
ment should participate in the planning. There should be communication 
between levels of government vertically and communication horizontally. 
Attempt to avoid duplication within each level of government, especially 
in federal government. 

National, state and local in developing national growth policies at local 
level. Coordination and assistance in development activities. This 
assistance may include training, funding, bonding, facilities and cohesion. 

Federal funds are essential for growth but federal government should be 

a springboard for the growth regionally and locally, not a stumbling block. 
Via the leglistive representatives to the U. S. Congress, we can control 
the involvement the federal government has by minimizing that im'olvement 
through rules and regulations. 

General guidlines only where geographical boundaries are crossed. Necessary 
where differences must be resolved. All levels. 

Policy formulation should be a cooperative process involving opportunities 
for all levels of government to enter the process and influence the decisions 
leading to statements of policy. 

II - 177 

The federal government will necessarily play a major financial and policy 
role in development, especially energy; but states should be able to shape 
that policy to its needs, philosophy, and history. 

Guidelines to help the states make decisions w4^th local control. 

Identify government levels corresponding with problem scale -- then regulate 
support accordingly, but be clear on true role of government in development 
process (which is predominantly market-determined). 

Yes, to the extent where uncontrolled development causes grief, 
period must be limited. 

The time 

There must be a blend of all levels of government working in partnership 
toward the solution of growth and development. The question is how do we 
develop the partnership and define the jurisdictional lines of participation. 

As much as possible, local government should do the necessary policy decision 
making; there are some areas, however, that have a large area or state-wide 
effect that may need policy decisions on a higher level for uniformity. 

Our nation has reached a point where less of a role for government may be 
the best means by which we can grow and develop. 

I believe that the decision of the level of support and the shaping of poli- 
cies should remain at the local level. I would hate to see policies formed 
without the advantage of local inputs which allow for local differences. 

State government - Siting requirement for major development. 

Local government - Zoning. 

Federal government - Set environmental minimum standards -- state and 

local can set higher ones. 

(1) Government must coordinate activities at all levels. 

(2) Coordination implies input from local citizens. 
f31 Government must help keep requirements uniform. 

C4j Government at all levels must monitor results of activities, 

II - 178 

First, define roles and levels of government. Depending on level, each gov- 
ernmental unit has a function to perform. Local level is primary unit of 
contact -- traditional services; state -- concerned with problems trans- 
cending boundaries; federal -- national policies. This is a philosophical 
answer to fit the question. Land use is a state function. 

Do we want government to play a major role in shaping policy for our devel- 
opment and growth? Make government less complex, more related to local 
problems and input, decisions or approval of programs at lowest level possible. 
Growth and Development are local issues. Federal government has many areas 
to be concerned with -- don't spread too thini 

Government is becoming increasingly complex -- it is needed -- it finds its 
own level -- but the Congress should undertake a review of conflicting 

To coordinate and stimulate/regulate development between states and regions 
but only to the extent the affected areas concur. 

I think this growth should be planned and done on the local level first 
and the state if needed. 

Someone has to shape policy. The more local determination, the better. 
The more areas can reach a consensus, the better. Government is needed -- 
don't forget any level. Where we can make it less complex, the better. 
State should bo arbitrator and facilitator. 

As related to service delivery etc. in growth areas. 

-- Federal government plays too large a role. Too far from the problem. 

-- Local government (municipal and county) needs to play larger role -- 

must be given more resources. 
-- State government role should be directed more to transfer of resources, 

less toward developing or impending policy. 

Government would be great 
Without the bureaucracy 
Let's cut back on bull 
And reshape the Democracy! 

II - 179 

Public sector policy should be initiated at the lowest level practicable. 
Capacity of local government is made incapable of implementation in maiiy 
instances; potential for too much control without checks. 

I feel that the government should play a major role in the plans for eco- 
nomic growth, but the role of an administrator of the program should be left 
to local government. 

Only setting broad guidelines -- local communities responsible for policy 
-- planning -- local development and industry. 

Yes to some extent, especially in policies. Industrial development left 
up to the public. Should have control over controlled growth first at 
local level. From bottom to top. Role of administrator and executor left 
to local level. 

Development goals should be established on the lowest governmental level. 
Ramifications of development will have closer, legitimized ties to those 
receiving positive and negative impacts. Ideally, the development goals 
should be on the municipal level. TA is only role U. S. S State governments 

The one that works best. 

In a democracy the formulation of policy is indeed a proper role of 
government . 

Yes, government should play major role in shaping policy, but it should be 
the elected representatives who do the shaping rather than bureaucrats and 
policy should be shaped at the lowest level possible. 

Because development policy must be somewhat responsive to society, government 
must have a major role because it will facilitate citizen input and serve the 
general good more than does the private sector. 

Government should only provide for the people at the lowest possible 
level, what the people cannot do as individuals for themselves. 

II - 180 

MR. OSTERHOUT: Our second topic is: At what level is government most 
effective in addressing growth problems? 

Your guide talked about what I would call quasi -government agencies, coun- 
cils of governments, the Old West Region — those that cross existing 
governmental lines. In other words, they go beyond federal, state and 
local. Economic regions, watersheds, metropolitan areas, educational dis- 
tricts and even neighborhood districts. This time, let's talk about the 
value of moving across lines -- existing government lines -- and how im- 
portant they are and how effective they are in this kind of development. 

We should get into the question of multiplicity and duplication that we 
meet once-in-awhile among government agencies. Can we eliminate some of 
that duplication? I was talking to someone last night about the Small 
Business Administration making business loans. Recently, they added their 
ability to make farm loans. The question was why wasn't that handled by 
the Farm Home Administration which is already doing that? That is an 
example of some of the duplication of effort that some people see in govern- 
ment programs. Let's work on this. Give us some answers as to these 
quasi-govemment regions and also duplication of effort. 

TABLE 3: Is the question: At what level is government most effective at 
policy making or implementing policy? I don't know what they mean. ' 

MR. OSTERHOUT: Do you want government and then at what level? 

TABLE 3: In making policy only? 

MR. OSTERHOUT: In making policy and assisting in the development. 

May we start over here on our left? 

TABLE 1: Actually, we never did quite decide between the federal and the 
state. It depends on whether it's national or national in scope, like the 
national federal highways going through our state, or the speed limit, for 
instance. When it was fifty-five, they said they would cut off our aid if 
we didn't lower our speed limits. We believe the state should be able to 
generate the growth pattern and then give it to the federal government to 
make a national policy. The federal government would not have as much input 
as the local control because it would tell the state what the problems are 
and what our growth patterns are. The federal government would not know 

MR. OSTERHOUT: You feel the state is most effective using both federal 
and local where it's needed? 

TABLE 1: Where it's needed, especially with money. 

TABLE 2: We came to another nice consensus statement. It depends on the 
type of services. Governments must relate and coordinate with each other. 
Emphasis should be on making local governments more effective, strict review 

II - 181 

and elimination of duplication of efforts by governments and quasi-govem- 
ment units, and the integration of rural development programs. 

MR. OSTERHOUT: Would we be able to paraphrase by saying ajiy particular 
level of government as one that you had consensus on as being the most 

TABLE 2: Local should be made more effective through this. 

MR. OSTERHOUT: Next table. 

TABLE 3: Governments are most effective where accountability is maximized. 
The level will vary with the particular function; for example, the inter- 
state road system. 

MR. OSTERHOUT: In other words, no particular choice of state, federal, 
or local? 

TABLE 3: No, but we bore down on this accountability thing. 

TABLE 4: Ours was that level of government that includes the community of 
interest and need. 

MR. OSTERHOUT: No particular choice of specifics, but based on need? 

TABLE 4: It should originate at the local level first and then be arbi- 
trated up to the level where all of the communities of interest are incor- 
porated . 

MR. OSTERHOUT: That's a good answer. You, sir. 

TABLE 5: The level of government that is the most effective is the one 
that has the jurisdictional and legal authority, the management capability, 
the consumers and financial resources for the service that is being pro- 
vided. In most cases, we felt that it was the state. 

MR. OSTERHOUT: State, based on legal authority. 

TABLE 6: We have frustration again with the question. I wonder if we 
could borrow their answer. We felt that the first question could be 
answered with a yes; and this one could be answered with an all. The effec- 
tiveness we decided was dependent upon the issue that was involved. To 
throw out some examples, Mr. Pickard pointed out that you would all hate to 
have the State of Wyoming defend you in a war; the federal government or 
national government would do a much better job. Taxwise, we hate to see 
the federal government getting into the state tax situations. We did agree 
that there has to be more of a partnership in the development of policy in 
order to create accountability, management and control that are necessary to 
make all the levels of government effective. 

MR. OSTERHOUT: To paraphrase that, we would say that you prefer a partner- 
ship of all the governments being involved in the process of assisting your 
ef fbrts , 

II - 182 

TABLE 5: Yes. 

TABLE 3: I would like to raise the view that I raised over here during our 
discussion, that 1 think that policy should not be developed by planners, 
but by the people through elected representatives that are accountable to 
them. The role of the planners in a multi-planning district or in a regional 
commission ought to be to consider the will of the people as manifested by 
the citizens to elected representatives and figure out ways to state and 
then implement it through existing avenues or make recommendations for new 
avenues. Quasi units of government, like regional commissions, and so 
forth, should not be the originators of policy. 

MR. OSTERHOUT: For instance, at the local level, you could use your local 
planning commission to feed in from representatives of the people? 

TABLE 3: I don't want to be planned and managed from above, but I would 
appreciate the skills of planners in helping to implement the policies that 
people decide they want. 

MR. OSTERHOUT: That's pretty much the theory of the local planning com- 
mission, isn't it? 

TABLE 3: I am not sure that's the way this Old West Regional Commission is 

MR. OSTERHOUT: It's a good point. 

TABLE 3: I am not sure how legitimate I would consider it to be. 

MR. OSTERHOUT: Of course, that's one of the reasons we are here. I think 
it may not be the form that you want, but the purpose of the meeting was 
to bring into the Regional Commission the thoughts of the people. A 
cross-section of representation was developed to come here and discuss 
these things and feed in that information. In a sense, they are trying 
to do what , maybe , you want . 

TABLE 3: And pick people? 

MR. OSTERHOUT: Yes. I think that's the way it had to be, and in some 
cases, we did a good job. Somebody did; I didn't. 

II - 183 


QUESTION NO. 2: At what level is government most effective in addressing 
growth problems? 

(1) COGs (regional governments) not effective unless members are educated 
on government procedure and on wishes of people. 

(2) Old West not effective because it operates only at the state level. 

(3) Any level of government ineffective unless people understand issues 
and procedures. 

(4) Need professionals at local levels to interpret planning process. 

State government is most effective because legally and constitutionally 
it is the pivot point of all authorities. It seems to be the unit that 
has most political input as well as the most dispassionate view of problems. 

The power of policy and administration should be granted to the most capable 
level of government to perform a function in the most efficient manner to 
serve the sector most directly affected. 

Effectiveness is determined by function to be performed. 

One assumes government is effective effective to a degree based on 


State -- the fed reflects the attitudes of the state (politically anyway) 

Every responsibility imposed by a level of government upon a lower level 
of government should have with it the necessary resources or authority 
to meet that responsibility. 

Government is most effective at the local level -- combinations of local 
government, state government, federal -- degree of problem or extent. 

II - 184 

In making policy. In providing funds for economic projects that are public 
service oriented. 

We have to define which level is effective -- or fix the responsibilities 
of each. 

National and state policies must be set; then within that framework, a 
problem or policy must be solved at the level at which it occurs. 

The level that government is most effective is the level where participating 
democracy is active. Since the New Deal, the federal level, first by 
default and now for other reasons, is the level where "it happens." State 
and regions must exert a greater influence in sharing with the federal gov- 
ernment the power it now possesses. Whether it will be more effective is 

Yes, especially state government programs in making policies. 

Example: L.P.W. Program states implementing sources to meet 10% minority 

participation on out-of-state recruiting for minority contractor and 


The level of government that is most effective is the one that has the 
jurisdiction, legal authority, management capability, consumer and finan- 
cial resources for the service being performed. And in most cases, that 
is the state. 

Local -- planning -- zoning. 

State government is the most effective arm in that it has the ability for 
local input and yet it can take a broader view without losing sight of the 
need and the solution. 

That level which can effectively address and accomplish given tasks assigned. 
That level based on competitive interests and track record. 

Depending upon the function, the determining factors have made all levels 
effective. National interest -- federal; regional concerns -- state; 
local (road, education) -- local municipalities. Objectivity becomes the 
overall concern on the federal and local levels, i. e., the state is gen- 
erally better (the lesser of two evils). 

II - 185 

For some planning -- when it concerns national interest -- federal govern- 
ment -- often at regional level. For most purposes, state government work- 
ing with groups of counties within the state. Local government -- aid 
neighborhoods in planning. None is "most effective." 

The nature of the function will determine the level at which it can most 
effectively be administered. 

Federal for bombing and water pollution abatement. Local for service. 
Need interchange for all levels. 

Level that includes all the people affected. Start at local level and work 
up to federal level. Should be effective at all levels. 

Local government is most effective, but watched by the state and federal 

The level of a community of interest and need, with single agency responsible 
and accountable. 

All levels have to be effective. Issues that can be distinctive local, 
regional or state should be assigned to the appropriate level. Sharing 
of resources to eliminate waste. 

The level at which it is most politically responsive. 

All government decisions must be made at lowest level possible -- local. 
They can be handled best at lowest level -- need regional authority for 
regional problems, multi-county for multi-county problems, etc. 

The level in which the people affected live and in which the solution 
exists. Start with local. Yes, government should be effective at all 

Fixing responsibility at State. 

II - 186 

The state is the most effective for determining policy, overall, but first 
scope and scale of the question must be determined. Some can only be addres- 
sed by federal government. The state cannot address national and inter- 
national problems. 

The state government is more likely to reflect local issues in concert with 
other local interests than being forced to resort to multi-state or national 
growth and development policy. 

At the level most responsive to the people concerned. 

At whatever level can best do job. 

Federal assistance to councils of government should go through state to 
allow for influence of state policy. 

That level of government is most effective which can effectively accomplish 
the task for the least cost and in the least reduction of freedom. 

It depends on the type of services. Governments must relate and coordinate 
with each other. Emphasis should be on making local government more effec- 
tive. Strict review and elimination of duplication of efforts by government 
and quasi-government units with integration of rural development programs. 

National government for national policy; state government for state policy; 
interstate compacts for interstate policy. 

State government can best provide for coordination of policies and programs 
because of its central regional focus. 

People are affected most often in their daily lives by local government, 
so local government has the most opportunities to be effective. Its 
duties and financial abilities are dictated by state law and voter edict. 
State law and federal law enter in only in cases of flagrant local failure. 


The level that is the most effective is the level where participating 
democracy is active. The federal goverment moved in when local levels 
failed to function. State and regional units must exert a greater 
influence in sharing with federal government the power it now possesses. 

All levels work together to determine appropriate goals and policies as 
determined at the lowest community level; then measured against state 
interests, then measured against national interests. 

The most effective level of government is the one closest to the problem 
with other levels participating as a potential resource. 

II - 188 

MR. OSTERHOUT: For our next question, I want you to turn to your study 
guide, on page 16, question 4. Now, we are getting down to the truly local 
level of neighborhoods and this question of whether there is a need there. 
The question is: How can public policy promote neighborhood stability and 
economic vitality as a part of national growth and development strategy 
without, at the same time, encouraging parochialism, exclusion, and segre- 

Take that basic question. Go as far as you want with it. If you want to 
move into subsections, you may, but work on that one and come up with some 
ideas involved with that particular question. You have the study guide. 
1 think it's easiest to get it from there. 

Are you ready with this question? We will start right here in the center. 

TABLE 1: We have one minority report which says, "Very carefully." Our 
consensus statement is: Funds should be administered through government 
units for audit and monitoring purposes. Programs for preservation and 
stability of rural areas should also be developed, and there is a definite 
need for more stability in the public policy itself. 

MR. OSTERHOUT: Can you give us the meat of that so we can get it on the 

TABLE 1: Funds should be administered through government down through the 
branches of government for auditing and monitoring purposes. When we looked 
at the word "neighborhood," we felt it was directed primarily to urban areas. 
The public policies now change so quickly that by the time local governments 
get ready to apply for the policy, it's already been changed, and they don't 
know about it yet. So we want longer term stability in our public policies. 

MR. OSTERHOUT: Let's go to the next table. 

TABLE 2: We said the federal government cannot effectively deal directly 
with every local community. The state is the logical evaluator of community 
stability programs. Cities and counties should deal with the state. The 
state should deal with the federal government for broad-type assistance. 
The assistance provided by the federal government should be allocated by 
the states to the local communities. 

MR. SULLIVAN: The state should be the clearing house for most of the 
federal funds which are being filtered down to the locals? 

TABLE 2: Presently, the states really only get ten percent of the pass- 
through funds. They go directly to the local communities, and that's 
where we feel you get less coordination. 

MR. OSTERHOUT: Let's take this table right here. 

TABLE 3: First of all, there are some public policies that can be de- 
stabilizing -- whatever was the combination of factors -- that empty 

II - 189 

our rural America and pour them into the city, destabilizing the rural 
communities as well as the urban communities that are impacted. Certain 
public policies can definitely destablize communities, for instance, 
Gillette has been unstabilized by the impact of the energy policy. Those 
are hazards. We felt that a little bit of parochialism never hurt anybody 
when it resulted in a very diversified and pluralistic society that gave 
us our origins and wealth and it should not be totally eliminated. It's 
very good for people to feel a part of an identifiable neighborhood. As 
it has in some cases, through VISTA, public policy could help people 
organize in neighborhoods and begin working together to establish their own 
policies which can be advisory to the appropriate level of government. That 
was a very good thing and that kind of public policy ought to be expanded 
to provide training and organizing and, perhaps, some start-up financial 
assistance to enable people to organize into definable neighborhood groups 
and work together on identifying needs, et cetra. Rural communities -- 
natural trade areas, for instance -- ought to be considered as neighborhoods 
in a rural area. An example, I live in a small town of three hundred, but 
we are in an expanded trade neighborhood that has about forty or so towns 
in it. Somehow or other, we all ought to get together as a neighborhood 
in deciding what we want to have happen to our area. Right now, I have no 
effect on what is done in the trade center. 

borhood development? 

conclude you feel there is a real value to neigh- 

TABLE 3: And that this public policy should address itself to providing 
the training, education and organizing of assistance necessary to formu- 
late neighborhoods and, then, not promote policies such as disrupted the 
whole rural society and caused the urban crisis. 

MR. OSTERHOUT: Thank you. Let's go to the next table. 

TABLE 4: Wc thought that in the west, towns were small enough and cohesive 
enough that towns and neighborhoods were identical. We did feel that the 
money should go to only units of government that have elected officials. 
In way of explanation, we thought the question was written for the eastern 
concerns. We would like to have the neighborhoods as part of the large 
communities competing with the western communities for the federal dollars. 
We would prefer to have the town recognized as the unit instead of having 
them compete with the parts of mainly eastern communities. We also thought 
that the federal government should set up careful priorities that fund basic 
necessities for communities throughout the nation before it funds frills in 
communities. We suggested that the top of the list for basic necessity 
should be water for people to drink. 

MR. OSTERHOUT: Very good. How about the corner back there? 

TABLE 5 : Our first answer was to the questions asked in Part (a) . They 
were: No, not applicable and, yes -- in part. We decided to put it into 
a statement. Money to be used for development and economic growth should 
be processed through whatever level of government has a legitimate interest 

II - 190 

and can assure equity and orderly development. 

MR. OSTP.RHOUT: Do you feel that includes neighborhoods? 

TABLE 5: Yes. We felt Omaha is the only area in the Old West Region that 
has a defined neighborhood. 

MR. OSTERHOUT: There is some neighborhood development going on in Lincoln. 
Somebody might add to that, if you like. We have a community development 
program in Nebraska. I think some of the other states may have, also. 
It was interesting to see that the cities really couldn't take part because 
most of the towns involved are bmaller. It was divided up by population, 
but there are neighborhoods within Lincoln and Omaha that said, "We would 
like to compete with communities." That's a totally voluntary program 
with really no funds available for them. There were some neighborhoods in 
Lincoln and Omaha that developed feelings almost similar to that of a 
small town, and it had value from that standpoint, I think. 

The last table. 

TABLE 6: We reached a consensus on about five points of this particular 
question. One was that the policy that's developed, first of all, must 
come from the local level and that within the development of that policy, 
they must consider the three facets of growth in development. That was 
social, physical and economic. The policy should show that the problems 
of growth are well-planned for implementation. Following that, the policy 
must also be adaptable to changing local attitudes. It has some flexi- 
bility to be able to deal with the plan as a whole. That creates this 
economic stability, which will create constant factors and will encourage 
the program areas that provide the benefits, dependent upon the diversi- 
fication of the interest within those local areas. That leads to a viable 
economy that theoretically takes care of its own. We also agreed very 
early on that the question had a tendency to recognize urban areas versus 
rural areas. That was a concern. 

MR. OSTERHOUT: Sir, you gave a simple answer to a simple question. At 
this time we have the reverse. We appreciate it. 

II - 191 


QUESTION NO. 3: How can public policy promote neighborhood stability and 
economic vitality as a part of national growth and devel- 
opment strategy without, at the same time, encouraging 
parochialism, exclusion, and segregation? 

You cannot. The term "neighborhood" does not fit the "Old West" 
because community is more appropriate. 

Except for Omaha, Nebraska, no city in the region can answer this question. 
Ideally, needs of local neighborhoods should find support at each level of 
existing government rather than federal imposition of national neighborhood 

This question is double-barreled and cannot be answered simply. It sounds 
like HUD-inspired -- very urban oriented. What about rural communities? 

My problem with this question is that public policy is mentioned as though 
it were a constant. Actually public policy changes much faster than local 
needs are met, so any local input from year to year, even from month to 
month, becomes a grand guessing game. The rules and the interpretation 
of the rules do not encourage stability. Political expediency is never 
mentioned. Rural areas cannot move as fast as policy changes. 

Encourage programs regional in scope aimed at providing benefits or results 
common to diverse interest. 

Only to the extent that policy assures that development and growth are well 
planned. As local attitudes change and as those changes subsequently affect 
the stability or economic vitality of neighborhoods, so too must the atti- 
tudes of policymakers be adaptable to those changes. Preservation of neigh- 
borhood then becomes a question of putting buildings on the national list of 
protected buildings. 

The federal government cannot effectively deal directly with every local 
community. The state is the logical evaluator of community stability pro- 
grams. The cities and counties should first deal with the state. The 
state should then deal with the federal government for broad assistance -- 
assistance provided by the federal government should be allocated by the 

II - 192 

Very carefully. Funds should be administered through government units for 
audit and monitoring purposes. Programs for preservation and stability of 
rural areas should also be developed. There is a need for more stability 
in the "public policy" itself. 

Supersession over existing governmental units to our subordinate levels is 
generating conflict. Governmental bodies should attempt to resolve conflict. 

Don't bypass the towns. 

Careful priorities that fund water and sewer before frills. 

Eliminate duplication. 

Should go to unit of government with elected officials. 

Division of grant competition by size. 

Money to be used for development and economic growth should be processed 
through level of whatever government has a legitimate interest and can 
assure equity and orderly development. 

Should have policy which strikes balance between regional (local) and 
national aspirations. Don't destroy parochialism; yet, maintain national 


Public policy can promote neighborhood stability and economic vitality by 
encouraging neighborhood (and all other levels) participation in develop- 
ment of an economic growth policy to begin with. There is something of a 
paradox in dealing with urban renewal (i.e., slum clearance) because the 
advent of urban renewal was conducive to causing problem. 

Neighborhood stability -- neighborhood organized planning commissions -- 
could be elected representative from neighborhood. Input of these neigh- 
borhood commissions into local government planning. Funds distributed by 
local government in accordance with wishes of neighborhood organizations. 

Visualize a hierarchy of government levels -- let lesser level seek aid from 
next higher one above it. 

The same way the government acts in the public interest. 

II - 193 

People make up neighborhoods; neighborhoods, cities and counties; cities 
; nd counties, the state; and the states the nation. How can any of these 
jiromote stability and economic vitality without encouraging parochialism, I 
exclusion and segregation? 


Through a process of identity, the opinions/concerns of inhabitants of 
the neighborhood relating to stability (growth) -- ultimate vitality. 

Imposition of controls at the federal level is necessary. 

Funds for neighborhood stability and economic vitality should be administered , 
through the government for audit purposes. Programs for preservation of | 
economic stability or rural areas should also be developed. 

More federal money or consolidated grants to states for distribution to 
small towns according to local needs and desires. 

Federal aid cannot go just to neighborhoods, but also to rural areas. 

(a) Program should be put on competitive basis. 

(b) Long-range planning at local level coordinated with long-range 
planning at national. 

(c) Not to separate neighborhoods destroys idea of city government. 

Coordinate purposes and efforts. 

HUD vs. DOT. One develops core housing; the other develops transportation ^ 

system to take people out of the cities. Not a serious problem for this 


First policy needs to know what the neighborhood needs for stability, etc. 
Resources made available to the level of neighborhood as appropriate in 
question #2. 

The term neighborhood does not fit Old West Region. Community is more 

II - 194 

The federal government can't deal objectively with every local community. 
The state is the logical evaluator of community stability and progress. 
Cities and counties should first deal with the state. The state should 
then deal with the federal government. 

1. Economic stability must be consistent. 

2. Viable economy will not cause segregation, etc. 

3. Encourage programs providing benefit or results conmion to diverse 
interests . 

4. Policy assures development and growth when well planned. 

5. Policy must be adaptable to changing local attitude. 

A viable economy will provide growth without sacrificing neighborhoods, 
vitality or encourage exclusion or segregation. 

Public policy should promote through training and organizational assistance, 
voluntary community councils or groups to consider local needs and provide 
financial assistance to enable them to begin functioning on their own. In 
rural areas, natural trade and service areas should be considered neighbor- 

Any public policy aimed at neighborhood stability should not promote 
economic inefficiencies. Such a policy does not promote long-term perman- 
ent solutions. Federal assistance should flow directly no lower than the 
state level to permit coordination with state goals and objectives. 



MR. OSTERHOUT: We have run through three so-called topics in this theme. , 
We would like to offer you the opportunity to develop a question yourself. 
You haven't had a chance to bring to lis a question that you may have brought 
to this meeting. See if you have a question that you would like to ask. 
Would you take about three minutes. Then each table can answer any of 
those questions, either their own or someone's. 

Do we have a question? 

TABLE 1: We would like to see a list of inadequacies of various government 
structures and processes. Everybody must know of inadequacies. If we list 
the inadequacies, perhaps we can get around to solutions. 

IR. OSTERHOUT: Are there any other questions? 

TABLE 2: I have two. One, how should a regional comprehensive planning 
process be developed from the bottom up? What I mean is, can we develop 
a process for a comprehensive regional plan that uses the bottom-up process? 
I don't like the top-down process. 

MR. OSTERHOUT: Do you have a second one? 

TABLE 2: Yes. How can the agricultural, recreational and tourism economies 
of the area be protected from the threat of industrial growth and development? 

MR. OSTERHOUT: Are there any other questions? 

TABLE 3: We were debating the fact that there are over 4,300 federally- 
inspired planning regions, none of which is coterminous with each other. 
Can there be an effort by the federal government to rationalize these things 
down to coterminous, cross disciplines? 

MR. OSTERHOUT: Okay. You want one more. 

TABLE 1: What inadequacies are seen in the regional economic plan goals? 
We also had another one. What level of government decided we wouldn't use 
the study guide after it was printed? 


Yes, sir. 

TABLE 4: I have heard quite a little bit on duplication of services. So 
my question is, is it practical to combine services such as water, sewer, 
welfare, town management at the regional level? 

MR. OSTERHOUT: One more? 

TABLE 5: Two more, but they are simple ones for simple people. Why is 
the Old West funding a project to study the feasibility of feeding aspen 
trees to cattle when we have abundance of grain in this region and why are 
we paying the John Deere corporation to develop a no-till drill? 

II - 196 

MR. OSTERHOUT: What was the last one? 

TABLE 5: Apparently, the Old West Commission has put out some money to 
have John Deere develop a no-till drill. 

MR. OSTERHOUT: I don't know how many of you kept track of these questions, 
but I would like to see you independently or as a table answer on > question 
on your card. We want examples of inadequacies of government. H )w can we 
develop a plan from the bottom up rather than the top down? How can we 
protect agriculture and tourism from industry? And duplication of services. 
Define what that was. 

TABLE 4: If there is duplication, then is it practical to combine services 
at the regional level? 

MR. OSTERHOUT: Then the last two are why is the Old West Commission 
spending money for grants in two different areas: one, aspen leaves for 
cattle and money to John Deere for no-till drill. 

Those who want to tackle any of those questions, go ahead and mark the dard 
Topic No. 4., Miscellaneous. 

TABLE 2: I had some other questions. 1 wondered about the Old West 
Commission. Where do they get their money and how much do they have and 
how do they influence spending of other agencies? How do they implement 
their goals? What's the source of their authority? 

MR. OSTERHOUT: I would suggest that you raise that tomorrow. We are not 
in a position to answer it, but there will be, I think, plenty of time 
tomorrow for questions. Rightfully, that should be answered, because all 
of us do not understand the workings of the Commission. 

TABLE 2: Could that be funneled in as a question to them? 

MR. OSTERHOUT: Yes. If you would like to put it on a card and if it 
isn't answered tomorrow, we will see you get the answer. Put your name on 
it so you will get an answer. 

We are going to ask you to spend a few minutes on this topic. Then I have 
one last request. In our meeting yesterday afternoon, the question arose 
as to definitions. We have a lot of trouble with possibly trying to define 
what balanced growth and development are. We felt that we shouldn't get 
into that as a large group because we might spend all day or, as somebody 
said, until winter comes to Bismarck. If you care to do so, take another 
card and give us something as to what you feel balanced growth and develop- 
ment mean to you in relation to the region. It may just raise another 
question in your mind. Should we even talk about growth as something that 
is quantitative? Many of us, all of our lives, have talked about growth as 
possibly better because it's bigger. Maybe growth is merely maturity. 
Maybe growth is learning to live within limitations. Those various things 
that many of us are more or less changing mind on possibly may influence 

II - 197 

your definitions today. 

I want to thank you for spending the time with us this afternoon, 
with us tomorrow when we have to report this meeting. 


II - 198 


That degree of economic activity which will insure a continuation of 
the advantages derived from living in the West and extend the advantages 
to those of this area not now enjoying them. 

Planning which takes regional, state, local concerns and projects both 
mentally and fiscally a directional policy which fully considers economic, 
social and physical impacts. Implementation occurs locally and is moni- 
tored by next level and mediated by national. 

To maximize the enjoyments of life with minimal environmental hardships. 
The best for less with no stress. When we begin to view the "community" 
as our neighborhood, town, and environment, then a sense of balance will 
ultimately arise with periodic growth a by-product. 

Balanced growth is the art of managing problems in a planned and organ- 
ized way such that the solutions present opportunities for communities to 
grow in an orderly fashion. 

Understanding all things do not have to be equal. All sectors of the 
nation, groups of individuals, and desires are different. USA grew out of 
individualism. Federal application of a template to all society is not 
efficient, representative, nor desired. 

All aspects of life improved in harmony. All must be considered with 
resources, priorities, etc. designated to maintain equitable inter-relation- 
ships that lead to growth. 

There is no such thing as balanced growth. There can be better and closer 
and more responsive representation. There can be economic stimulation. 
There can be depression, but any manipulation to balance everything will 
probably backfire. 

Balanced growth means providing safeguards to ensure that as expansion 
and change take place, it does so at the least social and economic cost. 

Growth that takes all factors into consideration. 

II - 199 



Leaders : 

Ted Schwinden 

Lt. Governor of Montana 

Lloyd Rixe 
President, TAP, Inc. 
Bozeman, Montana 

Tom Kiley 

Office of Commerce 

State of Montana 

Bob Hall 

Staff Assistant to 

Lt. Governor of Montana 

II - 200 

MR. TED SCHWINDEN: I'm Ted Schwinden . I am from Montana. I have three 
people assisting me because I am naturally a coward. The three people are 
Dr. Lloyd Rixe from Bozeman; Tom Kiley, with the office of coiranerce in the 
State of Montana, who will be working the blackboard; and Bob Hall, of my 
staff, who will be prodding me if I make mistakes and will make sure we 
stay on time. The topic for discussion, in what obviously by definition 
is the least controversial of the six themes, deals with environmental 
quality and resource constraints, anticipating change, and reconciling 
conflicts. I read the study guide at least four times, but I'm not sure 
exactly what those two pages say. 

In the arbitrary fashion that is reserved for tyrants, we have broken down 
the topics into four subtopics, all related to this overall issue of envir- 
onmental quality and resource constraints or ideas. I grew up in north- 
eastern Montana in our region of five states which, in some sense, still 
remains a rural island in what is increasingly an urban sea in the United 
States. As we look at our resource capabilities and potentialities, per- 
haps we should liken them to the kid with the lollipop, and I am talking 
now about the resource lollipop. The faster he licks the lollipop, the 
faster he gets down to the stick. What we would like to discuss and get a 
consensus on this afternoon is the basic issue of how much and how fast. 
Questions like: Is more better? Does growth equal progress? Dr. Rixe, 
who is an economist, and many of us were trained to believe that the free 
market mechanism will inevitably allocate resources in an optimum way. 
Subtopic No. 1 runs directly to the question: Can you institutionally 
control growth? 

This morning you went through an entire process. I see little point in 
repeating the Phillips 66 background. My understanding of the way to 
proceed is to give you 15 seconds to elect a chairman. Let's start with 
this table. Do you have a chairman? 

MR. NACE: I'm Ted Nace. 

MR. JOHNSON: Gary Johnson. 

MR. FUGELSTON: Carlyn Fugelston. 

MR. ROBERTSON: Jack Robertson. 

MR. CANNON: Ross Cannon. 

MR. BLEVINS: Wally Blevins. 

MR. STOLNS: Joe Stolns. 

MR. JORGENSEN: Jeff Jorgensen. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: Now, first of all, I think you should give a round of 
applause to your new chairmen. Next, each chairperson will designate a 
recording secretary. Would the secretaries raise your hands and identify 

II - 201 

MRS. ABBOTT: Betty Abbott, Nebraska. 

MR. MONTE ITH: Dean Monteith. 

MR, WILSON: Lou Wilson 

MS. BROWN: Candy Brown. 

MR. REEBER: Duane Reeber 

MS. HOLLIDAY: Gay Holliday 

MR. SEBELIUS: Steve Sebelius. 

MS. BANKS: Bonnie Banks. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: Thank you very much. The first subtopic for discussion 
and/or consensus 

TABLE 2: It seems to me that the program says that we will have an oppor- 
tunity to address other questions. I don't have one particularly to suggest, 
but I'm concerned that we're being railroaded down a tunnel here with little 
chance to speak out. I think there are a lot of us that are very concerned 
that we're being swept through a tunnel. I don't believe that's what the 
people really want in this region. I hope you will give people an opportun- 
ity to address other topics, if they wish. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: Is it the opinion, with the group, that you are being 
railroaded in terms of pre-selection of subtopics? How many people feel 
that way? Could I have a show of hands? That's significant. Would you 
like to drop one of these for an alternative topic? That's three-fourths 

TABLE 2: Let's just be open to rewording the questions as we go along. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: In other words, possibly redefining the subtopics from 
what's up there? 

TABLE 2: That would satisfy me. Give the groups a little more latitude. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: I think wc shared some of the concerns you expressed in our 
discussion and had looked at subtopic number four as one which could be 
dropped because we suspect it will be discussed in relation to every other 
topic. Wlien you get down to the bottom line in terms of growth policy as 
to who does do it, we assume that will be part of the discussion of the 
other groups. If it's acceptable to you, we will follow your suggestion, 
Mr. Nace. We will simply save any one of the alternatives (but in parti- 
cular, subtopic four) as one in which we can either substitute or redefine. 
Does that overcome the problem? 

TABLE 2: I guess that I feel much better now that I have said it. 

II - 202 

MR. SCHWINDEN: That's good. All right. I have to refer to my nstructions 
now. The procedure is for each one of you to place at the top of that card 
the first subtopic: Can or should growth be institutionally controlled? 

Put down your own ideas or directions on that card. Even if you do it as 
this young lady did, just to say it made you feel better to get it out of 
your system. I'm sure that with the wide breadth of experience, expertise, 
and interests, and so forth, we're going to get some excellent suggestions. 
Please be specific. I warn the table chairmen in advance to avoid long 
recitations on consensus cards. I am going to ask the impossible. You 
can read your consensus card in full, but I ask each of you to summarize 
it first in no more than 15 words, and we will put that summary statement 
on the blackboard. When the chairmen come up here to report, be prepared 
to first summarize in fewest possible words what the consensus is. Then 
you can read into the record and we will have a record of the entire dis- 
cussion. Take five minutes to draft your specific directvies. 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Excuse me, Mr. Chairman. I think there is a question 
on the question that you have presented to us. One, are we to attempt to 
define what an institution is, or is that already defined by the group? 
If it is already defined by the group, what is your definition of an in- 
stitution? Two, are we talking about strict economic growth? We have two 
terms, "growth" and "institutions" that are not defined. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: ^" response to your second question, I suspect you are having 
the same problems I had in reading the study guide. That came up yester- 
day. Someone asked me to define growth, and I'm still pondering an answer 
to it. I think it's normally thought of, and I suspect in the text of 
this conference, in terms of retention of 20 miles of a prime fishing stream. 
How do you define "institution"? Do you want to restrict institution to 
just governmental institutions? 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Which governmental institutions? 

MR. SCHWINDEN: I suppose at all levels. 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I think that's a little better. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: I'm not saying that's the right definition, but so we're 
all thinking of the same kind of definition, let's restrict institutional 
control to governmental control at all levels. Public versus private. 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Does it fall on the assumption then that the private 
sector will be totally uncontrolled with regard to growth? 

MR. SCHWINDEN: No, we're talking about public control of growth. Public 
and private. 

DR. RIXE: Yes, that's right, 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Would you go through that again? 

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MR. SCHWINDEN: We're talking about public control, in effect, government 
control of growth. 

We will now proceed. When about eleven minutes have gone by, I will 
signal you to take a vote at your table as to which idea your table thinks 
is most helpful in answering the question. 

I would ask Mr. Ted Nace to come forward and present the consensus of 
Table No. 1. 

MR. NACE: The consensus of Table No. 1 is that institutional controls are 
appropriate -- when land, natural resources (particularly water) and envir- 
onmental quality are involved -- with all levels of government involved in 
appropriate points, including citizens' participation with a more sophis- 
ticated environment. This is the real thrust of the area we have to improve. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: I don't know how to summarize that in 15 words. Controls 
are appropriate when all levels of government are involved and the issues 
of natural resources and environmental quality are involved. I think as a 
parenthesis, Tom, government includes citizen participation. Are there any 
questions or comments on that? Is that a fair paraphrase? 

MR, NACE: We're satisfied. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: I love being satisfied. 

TABLE 4: This morning we dispensed with writing on the board. The feeling 
of the group was that with the court reporter on hand and the people up 
front taking notes, we wasted time trying to summarize what are sometimes 
fairly complex thoughts. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: Is that agreeable with the group? We will dispense with 
that. We will have the chairmen give the report. Chairman at Table No. 2. 

TABLE 2: The real battle is to keep it under 15 words. Our table said 
growth can and should be controlled, but citizen participation must be 

MR. SCHWINDEN: Good job. I think that was 14 words. If it weren't, we 
declare it 14 words. 

MR. JORGENSEN: Yes, it can, and certain local circumstances compel some 
local control. To explain further, control exists at all levels now. It 
is felt some regulations need to be reduced or more narrowly defined. Some 
controls are necessary, however, especially at the local government, and 
it was pointed out that growtli initially depends upon economic feasibility 
which is also a control. 

MR. FUGELSTON: Our group consensus might be summarized as follows: Govern- 
ment affects growth. This growth should be directed rather than unplanned. 
A national growth policy should be developed from the group up with local. 

II - 204 

state and regional input. We should recognize the problems that are cre- 
ated by growth. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: Very well expressed. Thank you. Mr. Robertson. 

MR. ROBERTSON: Our group attempted to look at control in two aspects. 
One, government providing some sort of initiative; and two, the question 
of regulation of policy power. In the first case, it was recognized that 
the market mechanism is probably much more reliable (looking at the exper- 
ience in other countries such as England and socialistic countries) about 
providing the incentive. However, the public sector probably does assist 
management by providing growth opportunities. We talked about private and 
public development foundations in the confines of the Upper Midwest, and 
generally thought they would be useful in providing guidelines within the 
public sector. The second question on regulatory guidelines is the nega- 
tive type of thing -- zoning. These should be minimized and again be 
thought of as mechanisms only where absolutely necessary to redress balances 
between costs and benefits. 

MR. STOLNS: Institutions should guide growth indirectly through provision 
of resources and setting of standards and tax incentives. 

MR. BLEVINS: It is not a matter of whether growth can or should be controlled. 
Growth must be controlled. Very simply, strong state mechanisms, local mech- 
anisms and regional mechanisms are required. In addition, there should be a 
clearly-defined policy that is not merely lip service. To elaborate a bit, 
several gentlemen have mentioned citizen input. The citizen's needs and 
desires are almost demanded. Input is meek tokenism. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: Mr. Cannon. 

MR. CANNON: Our statement is that growth should not be institutionally 
controlled. Institutions should assist in planning for growth and facili- 
tating growth in a rational manner. We looked at the various kinds of 
methods by which growth can be planned and guided. Of course, there are 
laws, appropriations, funding, and probably the most import, the policy 
that the officials of government set by virtue of why they were elected. 
They should go out and face the people; and government, insofar as possible, 
and democracy should reflect those kinds of views. 

MR. NILAND: Ours is under 15 words. Yes, in the case where the endeavor 
is beyond the scope of private enterprise. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: I have one question of Mr. Blevins who made the report. As 
I recall, your statement is that we need a policy. Do you define that as 
national, state, local, and regional? 

MR. BLRVINS: Simply, 1 would say a clearly defined, rational yes, sir. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: Are there any questions on any of the reports? 

II - 205 


QUESTION NO. 1: Can or should growth be institutionally controlled? 

Growth should be controlled subject to local input and control. Growth 
in agriculture, or profit in agriculture, should be at parity. Growth in 
power of energy should be questioned at the expense of agriculture. 
Conservation of energy would limit power industry growth and benefit 

In many significant respects, it is already; new directions should be: 

(1) To rationalize present public structures and (2) To provide for full 

accounting for all environmental and social costs. 

Growth should be controlled within guidelines established between govern- 
ment, industry, and the public -- based upon the most complete information 
relative to regional and national needs as can be obtained. 

Yes -- at the local level through local land-use plans which can be inte- 
grated into state and/or regional land-use plans. 

The American democratic system is not well -suited to the control of growth, 
nor should it be expected to be. It can serve to guide growth by estab- 
lishing paths of least resistance through channels which will achieve 
social and economic goals. 

Only in a very limited and well-defined way. 

Sheer numbers (population) , given the rapidity of evolving change within 
the economic and social fabric of our society, requires a degree of "gui- 
dance/understanding/regulation" which can in reality only be accomplished 
through an institutional structure (public, i. e., governmental, or private, 
i. e. , organizational). 


II - 206 

Yes, it can by all levels of government although certain pressures are 
compelling for growth. It should be controlled, not stopped, at the local 
level -- especially where national priorities exist. Control according to 
principle, not plan. 

Any ideas related to perpetual growth -- as in economics -- do not recognize 
the finite nature of resources. Growth must be controlled. 

Growth should be based on whether the "project" (or whatever) -- creating 
such growth is economically feasible and should not be controlled by gov- 
ernment. Growth should be not only economically feasible, but in balance 
with environmental considerations. 

"Growth" should not be institutionally controlled but growth of industries 
must be within limits and standards of environmental tolerances. For example, 
power industries must meet air - water - land standards. This can only be 
done by governmental control. Environmental control must consider local, 
state and regional conditions. 

1. We cannot violate ourselves for economic production alone . 

2. Renewable resources take priority over non-renewable resources. 

3. Land and people are as important as industrial growth. 

4. We need a new and different process on how to anticipate change and 
reconcile conflict more effectively. 

Goals: Citizen participation more than talk (state and area levels), 
Balanced growth more than a slogan (area people support). 

1. Market allocation when possible. 

2. Institutional control in areas of grave conflict. 

Growth should be controlled through effective land-use planning. 

Yes it can. By planning, by incentives, by demonstrated redevelopment 
within already established areas. Iri_ some instances , it should be -- 
when the tax base is eroded by sprawl (growth) and services cannot be 
delivered; not, however, by imaginary lines and definitions. 

II - 207 

Yes, it can, through desirable legislative policies, i. e., growth control 
regulations, decisions for industrial siting, channeling of public funds, 
etc. Should it? Yes, at local level. 

Local citizens' review of government regulatory inspections, regulations, 
enforcement processes. 

Institutions should "guide" indirectly through power of resources, setting 
of standards and tax incentives. 

Necessary to extent they are reasonable and in interest of state and region. 
State or region should be leader in controls rather than federal. Too 
often political control and not on basis of scientific knowledge. 

Obviously, it is possible to institutionally "guide" growth. Planning 
and zoning boards at local, state, federal level "guide" activities. 
Grants, subsidies, tax incentives exist to emphasize specific economic 
activity in both the public and private sector, i. e. , it favors some 
activities over others. My recommendation is to emphasize local institu- 
tional initiative of the type of growth or no growth, quality of growth, 
i. e. , safety standards, building codes. 

Is there a way to institutionally control growth? It can at the macro 
level but not at the micro level. Large scale economic growth should be 
guided by state and regional decision-makers. We really don't have any 
say until we get an equivalent to the TVA for this region. 

Yes, it should. However, not directly by the federal and state governments 
except through the provision of resources to individuals and local and regional 
entities, and by setting standards; 

- controlled energy resource development. 

- energy conservation standards. 

- environmental standards. 

Economic growth -- can in some cases; should be in some cases. Random 
growth may be end. 


II - 208 


The other choice -- random growth. Decisions will be made, based on 
implicit assumptions. Institutions (public) are already so deeply involved 
that there is no retreating from where we are, only a possibility of making 
this process more rational. 

No. The growth must be economically feasible (profitable) and should not 
be determined by special power (interest) groups. If the resource 
developed is produced or developed by a monopolistic type firm, the state 
should, as under PSCs of each state, have regulatory control as they now 

Government growth can only be controlled by limiting service performed. 
Demands of the people would thus have bearing. Growth is sometimes because 
of a belief that the "people" want such programs. Growth of economic in- 
dustry will develop because of the sheer fact that there are more people 
demands -- growth of services, food, hotel related industry. Demand for more 
goods will have growth effect. A necessity would exist for growth just to 
provide jobs for growing population and demands. Government can't control 

In a limited way, growth must be controlled by the governing institution. 
Controlled as to its growth impact on the affected areas. Land areas 
must be restored to satisfactory level . There must be a cooperative at- 
mosphere between energy industry and affected people. 

To the extent that institutional (private or public) management is required 
to equalize costs and benefits. (The free market mechanism is an institu- 
tion also. ) 


-- Growth is influenced by all manner of government policy both as to 
nature and location. Every decision (location of highways, taxation policy, 
etc.) influences pattern of growth. 

Yes. Federal through local and state guidance. The Feds cannot issue 
blanket policy to cover all regions. 

No -- leave it to local options, assuredly not above state level. 

II - 209 

Yes (qualified). Through government process, most accurate feelings of 
community are reflected. Leaving it to private enterprise amounts to 
exploitation of both workers and community. The best check people have is 
through governmental structure. 

Yes, it must be within reason. Uncontrolled or unregulated growth in 
inself is not as desirable as that with minimal control. Growth needs 
to be directed rather than controlled. 

Growth needs to be orderly. Planning -- ultimate goals -- should do most 
to utilize resources and manpower. To the extent that institutional con- 
trol is necessary, it should be done -- allowing, however, for natural pro- 
cess to be factor in growth. 

1) Growth should be directed and planned for -- with realistic guidelines 
and safeguards. 

2) Growth should follow a state, regional and federal plan with limited 
involvement after the actual needs are determined. 

Yes -- need to be able to plan for impact of population growth in small 
rural area, for example, provide adequate educational, medical or public 
services while growth is taking place by "front-end" financing from private 
industry -- perhaps by prepayment of some taxes. 

Growth should and can be controlled by institutions. The problem is to 
assure that the institutions are controlled by the people who will be in- 
volved. This may be only the people who live in the area of growth or 
the owner of the property in the area. 

Growth can be controlled institutionally but I don't feel it should be. 
However, guidance and direction must be given through establishment of 
go.ils and objectives through long-range planning. 

Growth should be guided to help facilitate the best use of the land, 
growth should be guided by "institutions" -- what ones there are -- 
but not totally controlled. 


II - 210 

Institutional control of regional growth would be beneficial if properly 
applied, especially planned growth with citizen input. 

This type of growth, industrial and agriculture, has been tried in various 
socialistic societies -- it doesn't work. Example: We will make our five 
year plan work, even if it takes seven years. 

Yes, but I'm not sure who should control it. 
damage our natural resources. 

We must be careful not to 

The function of government is to gather information, assess total problem 
and feed back ideas and information for local and state implementation. 

It can't -- not without drastic sacrifice of individual liberties. 

What institution? It probably should be controlled in some specific areas. 

Multi-state level 
ship) . 

(federal - depending on circumstances -- local partner - 

Communities should not be at the mercy of either national policy or free 
market decisions which radically affect their economic or social structure 
or their quality of life. Energy development and industrialization are 
occuring in our region despite the desires of the society to retain its 
agrarian values -- strong local-state structures are needed so that people 
can have some control over their own destiny. 

Yes, but the primary control must be from the state with relation to national 
or regional goal and needs. 

Yes. Growth must be controlled and shaped through governmental action 
because our economic activities, heavy technology, concentrated urban 
living, and population growth are going to deplete our scarce non-renewable 
resources -- water, land, fossil fuels, air -- control should be at level 
appropriate to solving the problem. 

Yes/No. No federal control of growth. Advice only. 

II - 211 

Yes, under following criteria: 

(1) Regional, state or local 

(2) Conservation of natural resources. 

(3) Assure mid- to long-term economic and social stability. 

(4) Maintain environmental quality. 

Government can only encourage growth by incentive. The "institution" or 
government should have long-range plans to avoid boom and bust development, 

Institutions (units of government at all levels) are made up of elected 
representatives of the people and are, therefore, proper and necessary 
instruments or means of influencing growth. 

Should only be guided by institutional organizations -- the free market 
should be the main mechanism in growth. Local institutions should play 
the greater role in the guidance of growth. 

Yes -- legal constraints, economic constraints, political constraints, 
electing growth vs no growth elected officials, legislative constraints, 
i. e. , zoning, subdivision controls, environmental controls. 

I believe public control should be advisory, not complete control. Many 
cases of non-qualified people in public office have too much conrol. 

Growth cannot be institutionally controlled but should pattern and possibly 

Yes it can, and certain local circumstances compel local control, 

II - 212 


Growth is the result of certain specific needs. It should not be controlled; | 
it should be guided. i; 

I do not think growth can be controlled by government because most growth | 
comes from private capital reinvestment to provide service to the consuming | 
public which in turn supports government. J 


Control exists at all levels now. Some regulations need to be reduced. 
Some controls are necessary, especially at local level. Growth depends 
upon economic feasibility. 

Attempts by any institution to control growth have been notable by their 
failures. Over the long run, I do not think it is possible or desirable 
that any institution or group of institutions can or should control growth. 


1) Directed growth by government. 

2) Front-end financing (control of community growth). 

3) Federal guidelines developed through grass roots participation. 

Growth should not be institutionally controlled. Institutions should 
assist in planning for growth and facilitating growth in a rational 

it must but not stiffle. 
strong state mechanisms needed. 
- multi-state, federal and local, when necessary partnership, 
clearly defined policy that is not lip service. 

Institutional controls when land, natural resources and environmental 
possibility is involved -- with all levels of government involved at 
appropriate points, including citizens' participation, more sophisticated 

Yes. In some instances, uncontrolled growth, in the past, has created 
environmental/ institutional problems. 

Controls can be applied through advanced planning and analysis and 

review by constituencies. 

Local, state, county, regional, federal, legislature -- control through 

total cost benefit analysis. 

Other institutional controls that are effective (i. e. , preserve private 

initiatives and incentives -- should also be considered). 

II - 213 

MR. SCHWINDEN: We will proceed to subtopic two which is: How are the 
constraints to growth assessed? 

How do you evaluate those things, like finite qualities of water and land? 
To what extent should they be assessed? Who should assess them? And the 
direction that we ought to take in that whole issue. 

TABLE 1: Can I ask a question? 


TABLE 1: The question implies that we're locked into growth, but it seems 
to me half of the tables said growth can be controlled, and there is even 
a suggestion we shouldn't have growth. Now, we're sort of in an awkward 
position here, it seems to me. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: I'm not sure I see that same dilemma, because I think the 
subtopic can accommodate both a no-growth and a growth policy. In other 
words, if an honest assessment of constraints agreed upon by the public 
indicates that growth is simply intolerable, suicidal, it seems to me that 
assessment in itself is a defense or support of a no-growth position. On 
the other hand, if the constraints are not as finite as eliminated, it 
seems to me that is support for a growth position at some level. I don't 
see that. I see it as going both ways. So now would you take the next 
five or six minutes to write down your ideas on Subtopic No. 2 which con- 
cerns what procedures, what methods, what institutions? 

MR. NACE: Criteria? 

TABLE 1: Are you then asking how they should be or how they are? 

MR. SCHWINDEN: I suspect there is an implication of both. Should they be, 
and if they are going to be, how should they be done? 

TABLE 2: Would it be possible to rephrase that: "How can the impacts of 
growth be assessed?" I think that makes it a little more clear. 
We're talking about impact on the quality of life rather than talking about 
something that is a positive aspect of growth, which I don't think we're 
really wanting to confront at this point. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: It certainly can be readdressed, except that changes com- 
pletely the subtopic, because this subtopic recognizes that there are 
finite qualities of some resources and asks if there are mechanisms by 
which in some public forum or otherwise we can measure how long a lollipop 
will last. I think what you are saying is what if you lick the lollipop 
away then all you have left is the stick. Those are the impacts. Not only 
the speed with which you use them, but also the final results when they're 
gone. I'm a little hesitant to shift the entire thrust of this subtopic 
into the impact area. I think those kinds of concerns may be better dealt 
with in Subtopic No. 3 where we look at the allegation that certain impacts 
will fall upon our region in terms of resource development, and still we're 

II - 214 

going to run into conflict very likely with national goals and objectives. 

We'll still use five minutes, so if you would proceed now. Then the chair- 
men should use 12 minutes to discuss each idea and go through exactly the 
same process. 

Mr. Nace, are you ready to report, sir? 

MR. NACE: The word "capability" is not worked in too well, but we need 
capability to develop a mechanism of constraints of growth related to local, 
state and national needs. There should be a balance of long-term consequences 
versus short-term benefits and quality of life must be compared to quantity 
of use. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: Thank you. Table No. 2, Mr. Johnson. 

MR. JOHNSON: We agree, first of all, constraints should be identified and 
assessed. This is currently considered by our group to be a piecemeal 
effort, and that constraints should be assessed by establishing goals and 
objectives ranging from the local to national levels, including an examin- 
ation of alternatives. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: Table No. 3, Mr. Jorgensen. Would you come forward, please? 

MR. JORGENSEN: How are the constraints to growth assessed? We said by 
private business, government and local citizens. The latter 's influence 
should be increased. To expand upon that briefly, we said that three ways 
are presently being used to assess the future consequences of growth. The 
private sector is using economic and market analysis; the governmental 
sector is using external ties that are covered by specific legislation that 
has already been passed; the local people are looking at a perceived quality 
of life that they want for their area, including economics and jobs, as well 
as environmental and other factors. 

MR. FUGELSTON: Our group agreed that the first thing that needed to be 
done was to identify the potential constraints in any given area, whether 
it be the availability of water supply or the acceptable level of air qual- 
ity or any other factors. Once these potential constraints are identified, 
then we felt that they ought to be assessed: one, from a technical stand- 
point as it might relate to scientific information about environmental 
quality and the like; and, two, from a human value assessment point of view, 
and this would have two components -- one, from a local socio-economic point 
of view and, two, from the larger point of view of national needs and so- 
ciety desires. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: Mr. Robertson. 

MR. ROBERTSON: We also came to the conclusion of one of the previous 
groups, that the process of assessment of a constraint is really at least 
two steps. That is, first to identify a factor as a possible constraint, 
and then to evaluate it as to whether it should be included and to agree 

II -215 

to which it could be included as a constraint. We identified at least three 
factors. First, economic feasibility; second, political acceptability; and 
third, the environmental capacity. We broke down environmental capacity 
into two subcategories. First, that part of the environment which is a 
fixed resource, and we used as examples here, a water supply, air 
quality, or grazing capacity of land. These kinds of finite resources. 
The second type of natural environment which we thought is a constraint is 
a more subjective one, and that is a perception, again quality of life, one 
of the factors that a previous group mentioned. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: Mr. Stolns. 

MR. STOLNS: Basically, our group, after grappling with the effect, felt 
the question wasn't possible to address for 99 percent of the time. We 
decided that constraints to growth formulate chiefly at the national level 
without national input -- period; but a number of other words were mentioned 
like ambiguous, irrelevant, not pertinent, confusing and a number of exple- 
tives were deleted. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: But otherwise your group was generally satisfied? 

MR. STOLNS: No complaints other than that. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: Mr. Blevins. It's a hard act to follow. 

MR. BLEVINS: Presently the constraints to growth are assessed in the private 
market place with some governmental evaluation for a window dressing. IVhat 
is necessary is a humanistic aspect of the desirability of growth consider- 
ing regional and national needs balanced by state and local impacts on people 
and the environment. If costs to a local area are too great, it might not 
be advisable to pursue the "growth." It is necessary to remain in realistic 
touch at all times with the traditional concepts of social justice. 

MR. CANNON: I think our table would agree with the characterizations, the 
quality of the question, and we could have used 30 more minutes to work out 
what we thought the question meant. However, we read the question as mean- 
ing how constraints should be assessed. Our view of this is that constraints 
to growth should be assessed in terms of, one, the effects of growth in the 
local area; and, two, in assessing this growth we should look at the impacts 
of the growth both on the human and resource basis. What is the impact on 
air and water? What are the impacts on humans in terms of cultural and 
social disruption? Then, three, we think that in the case of coal develop- 
ment, you must look at overriding national interests. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: The final table. No. 9. 

MR. RALPH KENNEDY: Our answer has paralleled many of the other tables. We 
were coming from a little different direction. We thought constraints 
should first be assessed in terms of your stated goals, objectives and 
values. Having done that and defined them, then work down into the speci- 
fics of how you assess the particular constraints. Look at the economic 

II - 216 

infrastructure adequacies to support growth of schools, municipal services, 
hospitals, highways, ancl transportation. Assess physical inventory of 
assets required to support growth. That would be land-use availability, 
water, air, distribution of people and other environmental variables. 
Finally, assess how growth will impact the fiscal, governmental and insti- 
tuitional capacities in the affected areas. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: For what seems to have been voted as a very lousy question, 
we got some remarkably coherent answers. I guess it goes to the caliber of 
the participants, and I hope the attitude. 

II - 21:' 


QUESTION NO. 2: How are the constraints to growth assessed? 

1. Is the growth "self-generated" or "imposed"? 

2. Is the growth to maintain an excessive, different lifestyle or 
sound nutritionally? 

Constraints need to be identified and communities should live within those 
constraints as much as possible. For example, cities should not be subsi- 
dized in their urban sprawl by interbasin transfer of water and other 
measures which lower the quality of life for those having to furnish the 
resource. The exploitation of rural areas for energy development to fuel 
energy intensive activities unameliorated by conservation is another 

By local planning, growth can be controlled by area to best interest of the 
citizens who provide the tax base to keep the area in terms of the citizens' 

Assessment = identification and evaluation. 
Three interrelated factors: 

1. Economic feasibility. 

2. Political acceptability. 

3. Individual involvement. 

a. Finite resources. 

b. Subjective quality of life. 

Constraints should be evaluated by national good and must be effected by 
federal government in those areas which are of national scope. 

"Need" amount of growth considered probable -- impact on people, community, 

area, state, regions, federal. ^ 


Physical growth should be directly related to the capacity and quality of | 

the land; in addition, human constraints should be recognized, i. e., how 'A 

would growth affect the quality of life and well-being of people. All % 

growth must be assessed in terms of long-term vs. short-term consequences. 3 

II - 218 

1. Presently, by the most superficial means, and restraints are then modi- 
fied to allow growth. 

2. Restraints should include fully the opinion of those adversely affected, 
with consideration of the long-term health and environmental costs. 

1. Mechanisms -- all levels of government, public, local, state, regional, 
federal . 

2. Type of growth -- new/ replacement. 

3. Economic/social -- environment, quality of life vs. quantity of con- 

4. Efficiency and diversity, increase both. Efficiency. 

How: Know what area constraints are: relate federal and area development 
by people and economic constraints. 

Who: Attitude of isolation - polarization won't work. People only support 
what they are part of. Study situation. Set goals with local -state, 
regions, national input for that area. Must mesh it all together. 

Constraints assessed by: 

1. Meeting environmental standards, 

2. Economic feasibility. 

3. Natural resources availability and wise use. 

4. National, state and local needs and goods. 

Partial piecemeal assessments are being made through numerous agencies and 
efforts such as timber harvest, water planning. There is little integra- 
tion and objectives are not well defined. Wo must discern social impacts 
and move toward renewable resources. 

Growth outside agriculture must be constrained by a realization of the 
unit resource base. Dry rivers, mining of ground water, power development 
and the resolving of conflicts resulting in a necessity must be resolved 
in favor of a renewable resource base. 

Growth constraints must be assessed. Present assessment is on a piece- 
meal basis, but needs to be assessed in total. Long-range goals and 
objectives must first be established (local through national levels). 

Through the planning process, including EIS. 

II - 219 

Constraints to growth are assessed through analysis which addresses the 
consequences of growth and the enforcement of measures designed to mitigate 
adverse impacts of growth. 

Resource development will be impacted by public reaction to proposed 
plan of growth. Constraints to growth are impacted by citizens' concerns. 

The constraints, at the present time, are being assessed in many different 
ways and by a variety of criteria in a fragmented manner. 

By environmental restrictions (legal) and overall feasibility (economic) 

By seeking to identify and quantify the future consequences of alternative 
courses of action and by evaluating the projected social and economic 
costs and benefits of these alternatives -- while not being frozen into 
state where no action is possible. 

Determine the standard or quality of life for an area/ region/nation which 
can be reasonably achieved given the availability of resources needed to 
accomplish such objectives. Availability of resources (natural, mineral, 
water, human, social, economic, etc.) require that the same be inventoried 
and wisely managed over a projected time-span. 

Presently, they are assessed primarily by economics and this should remain; 
however, social, environmental and other costs must be taken into account 
and a balance must be struck between economics and others (by-and- large 
achieved but in some instances use of courts by environmentalists has 
caused too much economic cost). 

They should be assessed as closely as possible by market standards. 
Where this is not possible, I would prefer that the assessors have local 
government bias. 

Determined by economics. Such constraints are ultimately assessed for the 
most part by the people who are involved in bringing growth about (if 
constraints are unrealistic, a particular growth may not materialize). 

II - 220 

Perceptions or reaction to economic growth from whatever source comes into 
public platforms for purview, distillation and analysis -- generally process 
will be determined by what is economically feasible and politically possible. 

Must be based on past growth trends and pattern to allow for future flexi- 
bility on those constraints for improved future growth. 

Primarily by cost and national interest. When constraints become too 
expensive, alternatives must be explored and encouraged. This may be 
done by the economic system and goals on quality of life established by 
the community. 

It would seem that we use resources until the supply is depleted. We then, 
through innovation, find new sources. I feel solar, wind power, harnessing 
tides, other sources of energy, won't be used until a "crisis" situation 
exists or economically it is more feasible to use such sources. The ques- 
tion can be raised, "What good is the resource if not used?" Again, sheer 
numbers of people will have growth. Political and economic feasibility will 
play a part in growth. 

To put constraints on growth is to deny future generations "the good life. 
For an area with possible growth to deny this means it must wall itself 
in from the world and its trends. 

Assess by balancing regional/national need for growth against state and 
local impact of growth, people or environment. If the cost of the local 
area is too great, it might not be advisable. 

The constraints must be assessed with regards to availability, the effect 
on people and our way of life, and our desire for growth to accommodate 
the increase in population. 

The society must first ask itself what kind of a society it wants to be -- 
what shall its quality of life be like. Then it examines its resources and 
decides how the available resources are to be allocated. The actual 
amounts of the resources ought to be relatively unimportant in the decision. 
The decision should be people-centered -- not resource-centered. Resource 
constraints should not be left to private enterprise which is squandering 
unrenewable resources on things which are not real needs. 

II - 221 

Resource limits are assessed by the people and industries which utilize 
them. All economic factors are considered and can be graphed. 

Constraints to growth should be based on demand for the use of resources 
-- a limited supply of non-renewable resources -- assure that scarce 
resources are used in the long-term interest. Proper protection for air, 
water and minerals. 

It should be done by inventory at each of the following levels — local, 
sub-state, regions, states, multi-state regions, national -- the non-renew- 
able resources available at different levels of quality for growth. Such 
an inventory should be used by local, state and national governments to 
compare with consciously expressed desires of citizens concerning the type 
and level of growth. Such a comparison of physical constraints to public 
desires should go into the formulation of growth policies. 

It should be assessed (guided) by a policy-making group representative of 
each area to first defend the rights, but compromise to form policy bene- 
ficial to all concerned, economic sector, natural resources, etc. 

Physical constraints to growth (resources) can be assessed by scientific 
and technical measurement. Social, economic and political constraints to 
growth can be assessed by normal governmental channels with appropriate 
citizen involvement. 

On the basis of long-term benefits to the greatest number of people. 
Determined for social, economic and environmental benefits by local 

Criteria: (1) Conservation of our resource base to assure long-term 
economic stability. 
(2) Minimizing social and cultural disruption. 
Mechanisms : 

(1) Information supplied to citizens. 

(2) Citizen input. 

Economic conditions of the nation as a whole will suffer if our resources 
are not developed immediately. Development must be orderly to the benefit 
of state and local. 

II - 222 

The constraints need to be evaluated on an ongoing basis. The question is 
irrelevant, not pertinent. Decision-making should be at the local and 
regional level. 

The constraints to growth must be initiated and must be evaluated by: 

1. Citizens. 

2. Local governments. 

3. State governments. 

4. Regional entitities. 

Then treated as recommendations for further action. 

This question should have been answered before growth started. 

In a word -- "unrealistically." 

The problem is that the constraints are not now assessed. 

Society (people) must make value judgments upon the resources used and 
determine to use what the alternatives or trade-offs are. 

Each basin -- county, area and state -- must assess its own constraints as 
input to national policy, i. e,. Feds should not decide X number of acres 
of land should be set aside for wildlife without concern for people and 
local input. 

At present there is no means to assess the constraints of growth. Those 
constraints must be diversified and considered up front before any growth 

1) Identify potential constraints such as 

a) Water supply availability. 

b) Acceptable air and water quality levels. 

2) Determine scientific and human tolerance levels. 

a) Technical assessment. 

b) Human values assessment. 

- local socio-economic impacts. 

II - 223 

Currently assessed in private marketplace with some governmental evaluation 
for window dressing. What is necessary is a humanistic assessment of the 
desirability of growth considering regional and national needs balanced 
by state and local impacts on people and the environment. If costs to the 
local area are too great, it might not be advisable to pursue the "growth" 
necessary to remain in realistic touch at all times with the traditional 
concepts of social justice. 

1. Assess affected economic infrastructure's adequacies to support growth 
in schools, municipal services, hospitals, highways, transportation. 

2. Assess physical inventory of assets required to support growth -- 
water, land-use availability, air, distribution of people, other en- 
vironmental variables. 

3. Assess fiscal, governmental, institutional capacity. 

By private business, government, and local citizens -- the latter' s influ- 
ence should be increased. 

Constraints to growth should be assessed in terms of: (1) the effects 
of growth in the local areas; (2) the impacts of growth on the resource 
base, i. e. , air, water culture and social disruption; (3) the over- 
riding national interest. 

The question should have been answered before growth started. Constraints 
to growth are formulated and assessed at the national level without local 
input . 

Constraints should be identified and assessed. This is currently considered 
to be a piecemeal effort. Constraints should be assessed by establishing 
goals and objectives from the local to national levels, including an ex- 
amination of alternatives. 

Must develop mechanism for constraint of growth. Constraint relates to all 
levels -- local, state, nation. Need to balance long-term consequences 
versus short-term benefits. "Quality of life: must be compared to "quantity 
of use." 

II - 224 

MR. SCHWINDEN: We will proceed to Subtopic No. 3. 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: May I suggest the additional word to No. 3; that's 
"how" to precede the whole sentence. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: All right. Would that help? 

MR. NACE: I would like to ask that the question read: How can national 
demands be balanced with regional desires and concerns? 


TABLE 1: Yes, that makes it more democratic. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: As a politician, I have a great deal of flexibility, and 
I have no objection whatsoever to both, which is, namely, to place the 
emphasis in effect on compatibility of regional concerns measured against 
national demands. 

MR. NACE: I know Table No. 7 doesn't want this, but we do. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: I just designated that as the dissident table. We have an 
extra sheet of paper. I think as proposed, it would be: How can national 
demands and goals be balanced with or against regional desires and concerns? 
Does that make a more appropriate subtopic? 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Regulations? The national demands? What is that? 
Is that regulations? 

MR. SCHIVINDEN: No. I don't perceive it as regulations, and, I guess, we 
run into the same kind of semantic problems. Demands, it seems to me, are 
national policy objectives which place demands on regions for water, coal, 
oil, plant site locations, this type of thing; and perhaps as necessary and 
maybe an inevitable part of that is regulation. Has the rephrasing clari- 
fied or further muddied the issues? 

TABLE 1: I wonder now if it wouldn't be better to leave off "how." 

MR. SCHWINDEN: A deal is a deal. 

TABLE 1: Okay. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: That's in the spirit of compromise. I guess that addresses 
both sides. Can we be balanced, and if so, how? We will then proceed to 
use the next five minutes to place your ideas on your cards and then pro- 
ceed to the summary cards. 

The subtopic as amended was: Elow can national demands and goals be balanced 
with the desires and concerns of regional areas? 

First report is from Mr. Fugelston. 

II - 225 

MR. FUGELSTON: Our group agreed on the following language in reference to 
this question. When national and regional interests are compatible, there 
is no problem. When they are incompatible, then national goals should 
take precedence, but only with adequate compensation in terms of social and 
economic costs returned to the region adversely affected. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: That was an excellent statement. Ted, are you ready now? 

MR. NACE: Why do we always have to be first? 

MR. SCHWINDEN: I am simply trying to recognize talent when I find it, sir. 
Table No. 2 ready? Mr. Stolns? 

MR. STOLNS: The dissident table is getting a lot more valuable. My answer 
is certainly longer than 16 words. National demands should be considered, 
but not necessarily met, after adequate compensation to the region's resi- 
dents. National recognition is needed to preserve the integrity of the 
regions, and we have no balancing. We felt, I guess, as a group, it's 
going to be difficult and probably impossible to have a balancing of national 
demands and goals with regional desires and concerns. I think we mentioned 
the simple population disparity, the two percent, 98 percent balance. The 
last aspect I would like to reiterate is that we need some action to protect 
regional aspects. One key feature that was mentioned in our group, the 
phrasing of the question, is interesting in that we talk about national 
demands when possibly we're talking about national desires, and we talk 
about regional desires when possibly we're talking about regional needs, 
and those are some things we really need to consider. Is it a demand that 
everyone have a car that will go 180 miles an hour? That may be one of 
your desires, but whether it's a demand or not is a question we asked. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: Is another table ready? 

MR. JOHNSON: We have two people saying that these issues can be balanced 
and six saying, in essence, that they cannot be balanced. Those who said 
they could be balanced indicated that this could be brought about through 
the resolve of the nation, if the national demanders were considerate of 
the ones affected. Our table also has faith in the democratic system. 
Those in the majority who indicated that this balance could not be brought 
about were of the opinion that all issues have a give and take, and no one 
really gets everything he really wants. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: All right. We will pick up the idea cards. 

MR. ROBERTSON: Mr. Chairman, our table felt that Congress can be identified 
as one body that has the role and the ability to redress this balance from 
time-to-time. We looked at the experience last summer of the shift in 
spending from some of the sunbelt states to the great plain states and the 
eastern seaboard states. However, we have to recognize that the great 
plains states will never share numbers in terms of votes to influence this. 
We have to also look at national and economic resources as if we have some- 
thing to sell. We can use that strength to parlay ourselves in the national 

II - 226 

balancing act to help cover and set our priorities and achieve a better 
balance for the great plains states because of our resources. 

MR. NACE: Table 1, we recognize the reality of national goals. With com- 
promise we can balance national demands with regional concerns, but our 
region must be heard notwithstanding the lack of numbers or minority, a 
typical position in the national forum. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: Thanks, Ted. It was, as always, eloquent. 

MR. JORGENSEN: I believe I may speak for the silent majority of tables, 
when I say we saw very little difference in the two questions. However, I 
have an introductory sentence for you here, and then a 14-word statement. 
Countervailing powers, statesmanship, anil hope for sympathetic treatment 
may not be enough. Communication of regional concerns, which arc classed 
to be considered nationally, must be improved. 

MR. CANNON: Our statement is an answer to the question. National goals 
and regional aspirations and concerns should be and can be balanced by and 
large. National goals should, where possible, reflect regional desires 
and concerns. This is liest achieved by utilizing existing political pro- 
cesses, and we assume in saying that, th;it we all recognize that we are 
citizens of the United States and of the states in which we live, and we 
bear a dual responsibility in measuring aspirations, and goals for both 
directions. With a reasonable amount of good will, this balancing can be 
achieved. We think it can best be achieved when the national government 
does not attempt to unilaterally impose its demands and goals upon the 
regicns. There may be cases where national emergencies and exigencies 
would dictate otherwise, but by and large we think that the national govern- 
ment should be very charitable. 

MR. FLEVINS: National and state policy through formal communication and 
consultation at all levels should reconcile conflicting state and regional 
need? through a national policy of equity between regions and states. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: I believe Table No. 9 is the last one. 

MR. NILAND: Thank you. Yes, regional desires and concerns must be realis- 
tic and responsible or national demands and goals will preempt. 

II - 227 


QUESTION NO. 3: How can national demands and goals be balanced with 
regional desires or concerns? 

Probably not, wholly, if my perceptions of this region's desires are accurate. 
However, a region's desires should be incorporated as much as possible in 
national planning. Natural resource availability will determine this to 
some extent, but such things as an export policy for coal in Wyoming could 

As long as we are a nation, they can; and by the political process. 

National demands and goals cannot be balanced in all cases with the regional 
desires and concerns. The process of trying to balance or deciding which 
takes precedence is the overriding question. 

No -- national demands cannot be balanced with regional concerns until 
such time as regions prioritize national goals over regional concerns. 

National demands and goals can be balanced with regional desires and goals 
when those who make the demands consider the impact these demands will 
have on those affected -- social, economic and environmental. 

Yes. Only with give and take sacrifices at both levels. 

They cannot unless national desires change for material wants. The 
quality of life in area should not be compromised for cheap food or power. 

Not in all cases. A compromise must be reached in every case. Compromise 
implies no one gets everything he wants. Needs and desires change so no 
answer is ever final. 

By regional planning of demand which exists or will be existing in the 
future by local citizen planning of the future. 

II - 228 

Yes, they must be. National goals must encompass local goals; compromises 
will be necessary, but these should not be arrived at solely on the basis 
of voting power. 

If they (the regions) speak with a loud enough voice and carry a big stick 
to make the regional concerns a PART of the national goals. 

Question should be rewritten: How or can national demands/goals be 
balanced with regional/local desires/concerns? 

National goals/demands must be a sum of the local/regional demands/desires/ 
goals. Democracy and individual freedom are not preserved by dictating 
national goals/policy. 

Yes, with national goals which must be balanced with regional desires for 
environmental quality and jobs after some compromising. 


1. Federal government set out national goals. 

2. Input from area, state, region must be involved on action programs. 

3. Basic education for individual and group dynamics in area and state. 

4. Some time element concept. 

(Specific funded program each state -- Old West Commission can take 
leadership here.) 

Imbalances -- large, too strong. Increase local/state/regional power -- 
power to act. 

Yes. National needs must be met, but local or people concerns must be 
considered. Example: Coal must be mined, but land must be reclaimed to 
comply with its original use. National policy must be balanced with local 

Region must be willing to take or accept national decisions. 

Usually the two work together and cooperate for the good of both; however, 
if there is a difference of opinion, then national needs or priorities 
must take prcedence. 

II - 229 

National demands may be counteracted if regional desires and concerns 
which are in conflict with those can be expressed as costs which must be 
borne nationally as well as regionally. 

Counterveiling powers -- states vs. federal; responsible statesmanship is 
best way to assure balance; it can be done and our governmental structure 
is designed to assure (nearly) that it will be done. 

If national goals/objectives have been established or are based upon 
effective involvement in regionalized planning and if proper communcation 
channels are operative, a semblance of balance should theoretically be 
achieved. The process is equal to the acceptability of the program. 

Start with conscious national recognition that subnational concerns and 
desires vary substantially about the country and by the use of specific 
programs that are flexible enough to address these subnational questions; 
and by a national willingness to recognize these regional differences and, 
in some cases, change national priorities accordingly. 

1. Cash. 

2. Force. 

Yes -- by reducing regulations which slow the decision process of those 
responsible for bringing about job -creating operations. 

National demand/goals can be balanced with region and local desires and 
concerns but it will require a more sympathetic approach by the federal 
bureaucracy to local and regional sensitivities. 

If the congress can be considered a national body which identifies needs 
and states national goals, then regional coalitions could be formed where 
interest coincides to influence this body. 

Each area of our country is dependent upon the output (resources) of the 
other. It is apparent the national goals should be the summation of the 
different regions. The goals of each region should be weighed against the 
ne(;ds of the others. 

II - 230 

National needs are usually filled by regional areas when economies are 
such that the regions benefit financially and little thought is given to 
whose needs you are filling. National needs mean dollars to regions. 

Whatever congress demands, congress gets. Clout -- we don't have. Nation- 
ally we're in for it. Regionally -- demands unity to obtain any kind of 
balance for ourselves and it depends on other small regions. 

Coal is a great example. The Old West Region has the coal, the nation has 
an energy appetite. Being states of the union, we are going to supply the 
coal. The real problem is to insure that the raining doesn't affect water 
tables, and that the land is returned to productivity for grazing or farming. 
There is no doubt that some residents of coal areas would prefer that the coal 
not be rained, but national government has determined (President Carter) that 
coal will be our fuel. The vote will be dominated by eastern wants. 

In terms of balance, recognizing the diversity of the people, the resources 
available and the nation's welfare. 

Because national and regional needs and goals are similar, a balance could 
be reached by allocating human and natural resources where needed (supply 
and demand). Federal and state regulatory agencies could reassess those 
rules in order to ease the flow of resources at a minimal cost. 

If the nation's demands, for example, energy, are in a region endowed with 
surplus energy sources, national demands should be considered, providing 
the areas involved are adequately compensated for the extraction of the 
resource. Adequate compensation should include financial, technical, 
etc. aid to rainimize the impact of the national demands to provide a real 
benefit to the regional residents. If national demands are great, then 
they should be willing to pay for whatever they want. 

Some mechanism needs to be created to insure that the region is not sub- 
merged by national demands or goals. How this is to be accomplished is 
the problem. Perhaps building some sort of local or state veto power is the 
answer, but this is at best a tenuous solution, probably impossible. 

II - 231 

No, they cannot be balanced because the national demand and that of the 
populated east will always (shouldn't, but will) be considered above 
regional needs (because regional desires/concerns are never responded to 
-- only a minor voice in the nation). At no point in time do I see the 
nation sacrificing its demands. 

Do not believe national demands and goals can be balanced with regional 
(2% of population) desires and concerns. They should be balanced; liut 

While it seems improbable that such reconciliation can occur, one possi- 
bility is the recognition by the "nation" that each region's stake and 
integrity must be maintained. Perhaps by ensuring that compensation in 
various forms is adequate. 

For each state and local entity to have a solid hold on control of their own 
desire and plan for the exploitation of their natural resources. 

By planning from the local, regional, state, national levels that work towards 
a unity of purpose. This is difficult to accomplish, but must be attempted 
in our free democratic society. The goal should be to achieve balanced 
development that gives adequate consideration to local, regional and national 
interests and needs. The alternative is an autocratic form of government 
from the top down. 

Regional demands differ throughout U. S. Comprehensive plan of needs. 

It should be federal policy that regional desires/goals have priority over 
other regional or national desires/goals. Real regional or national needs 
(as contrasted with demands) should be carefully considered and satisfied, 
if possible, within the contraints of local, state and regional goals. 

The national demand must not put a strain on local resources. Both 
parties involved in supply and demand situations must reach a balanced 
compromise so that there is a fair trade-off of resources and goods. 

Regional desires or concerns and responsibilities must come first. The 
national goals must put the regions together into a comprehensive policy. 



1. Proposed national goals and policies should be developed through 
presidential and congressional action. 

2. Proposed state policies and goals should be developed through gubernator- 
ial and legislative action. 

3. Both should be developed with opportunities for formal public input. 

4. National and state policies should bo reconciled through open communi- 
cation and consultation of elected officials of different levels. 

Can and should be balanced. National demand has to come first. 

Area, states and regions to guide devclo|)mer.t according to their own 

National demands or goals can be balanced with local desires and concerns 
by providing assistance and guidance in lessening the impacts on the local 

What is the problem? Our federal system and constitutional procedure 
provide the mechanism for the resolution of regional differences. 

There are no national demands or needs for p.rowth other than to make what 
you have go as far as it can. There are regional desires, many of which 
are in opposition to the desires and concerns of OWRC. These must be bal- 
anced to preserve the autonomy and integrity of one region. If energy 
demands of another dominate OWRC, then this region will become an economic 
colony for the rest of the nation which can't be allowed. 

There must he a balance between regional and national demands/goals. When 
national interests are involved, then and only then, should national policy 
take precedence. 

When national and regional interests arc compatible, there is no problem. 
When they are incompatible, then national goals should take precedence, 
but only witli adequate compensation in terms of social and economic costs 
returned to the region adversely affected. 

Communication of regional concerns which arc "costs" to be concerned na- 
tionally must be improved. Countervailing powers/statesmanship and hope 
for sympathetic treatment may not be enough. 

II - 2?>'S 

We accept the fact that there must be national goals. With compromise 
we can balance national demands with regional concerns, but our region must 
be heard nothwithstanding the lack of numbers or minority, a typical posi- 
tion in the national forum. 

Yes. Regional desires and concerns must be realistic and reasonable or 
national demands and goals will preempt. National demand is a regional 
demand . 

Congress can be considered a body to identify needs and redress this balance. 
However, the Great Plains states cannot rely on a coalition of numbers be- 
because we don't have the votes. We also must band together to parlay our 
resources. We have something to sell. 

II - 234 

MR. SCHWINDEN: I sense some real frustration in this topic, and maybe 
some duplication. I see the same sense of vagueness in Subtopic No. 4. 
If there is a national growth policy, a regional growth policy, a state 
growth policy, who or what determines what that policy is going to be? 
Do you want to use that subtopic? Is it too broad, or would you like to 
take three or four minutes to see if there is an area which is relative to 
the environmental quality and resource constraints, change and conflict? 
I think we could take three or four minutes if you would like to add some 
input. Let's be revolutionary and try something different. 

MR. NACE: I thought Governor Link offered an alternative agenda to this 
conference in the list of topics that he suggested in his opening remarks 
this morning. I wonder if they might be reviewed and considered now for 
the agenda. He talked about agriculture development, world hunger, rural 
development, minorities, including women, air and water quality, solar and 
wind energy and citizens' forum for the region on its issues as an alterna- 
tive agenda. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: Mr. Nace, I'm trying to think of a way to paraphrase that 
in a subtopic, and I am having a very difficult time. Are we talking 
about alternatives to growth? 

MR. NACE: I felt he had some other topics tliat were left out of the pre- 
pared agenda. When you open up the floor here, let's not forget those. I 
really don't have a specific proposal. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: Does anyone have a specific alternative to Subtopic No. 4, 
other than the comments of Mr. Nace, to incorporate that sort of list that 
Governor Link gave us this morning? Is there any other idea? 

TABLE 1: Yes. I would like to see the question rephrased: Does growth 
policy begin at the community level or at the national level? 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I would like to hear a series of discussions on 
what people feel growth is; what they understand growth to be. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: One of the things we hope to do is save a few minutes from 
the very tough agenda (and I have the feeling that I am going through boot 
camp again this afternoon). At the conclusion of the afternoon program, we 
hope to throw out for general discussion, in a fairly short time frame, 
what is growth, and in particular, what is balanced growth? I think we 
would like to address that in a general forum-type discussion at the conclu- 
sion of the discussion of the four subtopics. We have had one other con- 
crete suggestion which is to redefine Subtopic No. 4 as, where does growth 
policy emanate -- trickle down or trickle up -- I guess is basically what 
you are talking about. Is it the feeling of the group that you would 
rather address the question rephrased that way? Mr. Larson. 

MR. LARSON: We had some talk about no growth. Maybe we should just address 
that as, should we have growth — period. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: In a sense, in my response to Mr. Nace, I guess that's 

II - 23[ 

what I said. I don't think that's what Governor Link said this morning, 

but are there alternatives to growth? Yes. ;! 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I think we have been missing the central issue which 1 

concerns us all. Perhaps we could talk about appropriate growth or appro- ] 

priate technology for this region and what that might entail. It could | 

involve some of the things Mr. Nace has mentioned, such as solar energy. '} 

What might be some ideas for use of our capital within the region and i 

appropriate scale technology to this region, which might not desire the | 

values we cherish? i 

MR. SCHWINDEN: I want to pose a possible subtopic. What is acceptable ' 
growth? Is that a better question to address? J 

TABLE 1: This goes back to the question I asked. Where does growth emanate? v, 


MR. SCHWINDEN: I would not be adversed to making it a dual question, if we -^ 
can stay in this general area. The subtopic will be: What is acceptable 
growth and who determines the levels? Is that an agreeable rewrite? I see 
a lot of nodding heads. Three, that's a majority. The motion is passed. 

The subtopic is: What is appropriate growth and who determines the level 
of growth? 

Would you please proceed as rapidly as you can. 

Time is up, and I am going to ask Mr. Nace to make the first report on the 
final subtopic. 

MR. NACE: Friends, Table No. 1 has concluded that appropriate growth is 
that growth which increases human potential; benefits individual health, 
education, welfare and security; enhances the environment and deversity; 
and reduces discrimination, poverty, disease, sloth, ignorance and exploi- 
tation of human and natural resources. Now, this important consensus: 
Growth is set by the interaction of government and the private sector. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: Table No. 3. 

MR. JORGENSEN: We have a sufficiently vague answer. Appropriate growth is 
that which is perceived to have greater social and economic benefits than 
social and economic costs, and this will be determined largely in the 
political arena. 

MR. STOLNS: Appropriate growth is that growth which is consistent with 
regional goals; then the region promotes vigorous programs in energy con- 
servation of industry, services and ideas which preserve environmental 
quality; control of energy resources; and guaiantee of the health of 
renewable natural resources and that which doesn't engender short- or long- 
term hardships to humans or to the environment in the area of growth. 
Growth should be left to local option. 

II - 236 

TABLE 8: Appropriate growth is the quantity and quality of growth which 
meets the predetermined goals and desires of the relevant community -- 
economically, environmentally, and socially -- considering the long-term 
future as well as the present. It is growth which is consistent with the 
cherished lifestyle and values of the community and which encourages and 
nurtures human relationships within a physical environment that retains 
its integrity and beauty. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: I am going to save that for a speech someplace. That was 
very well done. 

MR. ROBERTSON: That's a hard act to follow. Our table discussed the needs 
for economic growth to somehow be linked and balanced with population growth. 
It doesn't assume that population growth is given. That also can be manipu- 
lated. However, there is a need for the population to be supported by some 
sort of economic growth in terms of the overall productivity of the economy 
and to deal with the question of meaningful employment. We talked about a 
need to change our traditional ideas about employment. (We have not really 
explored alternatives to the 40-hour week.) We talked about sharing of 
jobs, part-time jobs, and this sort of thing, but especially the need for 
meaningful employment. We recognize that there are regional differences. 
Again, this goes back to an earlier question, Mr. Chairman, in terms of 
constraints to growth. There are areas of the U. S. which certainly have 
more strict constraints in terms of water and this sort of thing, and this 
will mean a continuation of migration within the U. S. from areas with high 
growth constraints to those that have less growth constraints. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: I think we still have a couple more. 

MR. JOHNSON: Our group said that appropriate growth must consider appro- 
priate technology while maintaining and not exhausting a renewable resource 
base. There was some recognition that the word "community" must be con- 
sidered as well as national and regional concerns. Appropriate growth 
enhances the social and economic aspects of the region. Lastly, the level 
of growth is developed at the local level cognizant of national needs. 

MR. FUGELSTON: Our first answer is going to be five percent and real 
growth. Our group said that appropriate growth is sufficient growth to 
provide employment opportunities to the region's young people, but at a 
gradual rate to adjust to the impacts of growth, both socially and envir- 
onmentally. As it relates to the question of who determines the appropri- 
ate level of growth, I think we would agree it was a combination of private 
capital and the willingness of state and local government either to expe- 
dite or restrict growth. 

MR. CANNON: We tried to wind up this discussion after working all the way 
around the nuts and bolts with just sort of a broad idea of what we think 
appropriate growth is. Our report is that appropriate growth is growth 
which produces meaningful jobs for those able to work, as well as other 

II - 237 

economic and social benefits which outweigh the associated economic and social 
costs. We didn't use the term "environmental," but we assume environmental 
impacts fall under economic and social headings. In the first instance, it 
should be done locally. 

MR. NILAND: Appropriate growth is that growth that will maximize the 
desirable and minimize the undesirable. The rate is determined by the 
maintenance of our standards of living. 

II - 238 


QUESTION NO. 4: What is appropriate growth and who determines the level 
of growth? 

Opportunities for work from diverse sectors, public and private, service 
industries, hard core industries, aesthetic industries, research industries, 
both basic and applied. Acceptable growth is that which allows diverse 
personalities to participate in diverse occupations for economic as well as 
personal satisfaction. 

Acceptable growth is growth that has been well planned within given constraints 
and complies with all regulatory agencies. This growth policy will assure a 
balanced growth pattern, acceptable for present and future needs. 

Level of growth will be set by the needs and/or desires of the people. 
Acceptable growth will be determined by the desires of your population. 

That which has the majority involvement and for the individuals the maximum 
satisfaction. All those who are affected through a proper consensus. 

Growth is set by economics and environmental factors (pollution, water 
quality, community crime, etc.). Acceptable is what the economy allows. 
Jobs must be created for growing populations. In order for agriculture to 
grow and meet future food demands, restraints must be lifted on chemicals 
that are proven for predator and insect control, chemicals that are environ- 
mentally safe. I fail to see how we can have no growth when we have a 
growing population and a population that demands growth. Even the environ- 
mentalists seem to like to travel all over the country expounding their 

Small -- human scale -- decentralized, non- consumptive as possible -- 
conserving small businesses, i. e., furniture manufacturing, bakery, 
wholesome food processing -- more labor intensive and less energy intensive 
emphasis on agriculture with fair return to farmer -- (solar, wind and other 
alternative energy sources -- determined at local level). 

Growth which permits economic advancement of a region's citizens while mon- 
itoring their quality of environment is appropriate. This must be determined 
on the basis of the needs of the nation with cognizance of the impacts upon 
the region. 

II - 239 

Growth that is appropriate is one that accepts the maintenance of a viable, 
healthy environment and the proper use of renewable resources. Growth in 
the agriculture that conserves the soil and water base, while providing the 
necessities of life, will benefit all facets of the economy. Growth that 
accepts using up of unrenewable resources is unacceptable. 

Population and economic growth must be matched. Support of people is related | 
to the productivity of the national (and world) economy and to present values i 
of the work ethic -- jobs. However, again, regional differences in constraints | 
exist -- economic, political, and environmental. This may imply continuing 
present migration patterns. 

Tlie overriding control on level of growth is world population. Given 
the present projection of world population, any discussion of resource use 
is short term when viewed from the perspective of human history. The forces 
of nature over a long time will wipe out any indication of planning if 
population is not controlled. 

Appropriate growth is growth at a rate and to a level that will protect and 
enhance the social well-being of the region while at the same time contri- 
bute to the welfare of the nation. Growth levels should be developed at 
local levels, observing broader national needs. 

Growth policy is determined by desires and needs. As to who determines what 
the growth policy will be, I believe it will be by the majority. However, 
the region impacted should be given more consideration. Appropriate growth 
is growth that provides our needs. The level of growth should be based on 
reasonable demands, not exploitation. 

Economy of the nation as a whole should be stimulated by developing our 

Growth which recognizes people needs for an adequate standard of living; 
social justice; individual self-determination and control of one's life; 
meaningful jobs for all able to work. 

Growth should meet the social, economic and environmental needs of the majority 
of our citizens. 

II - 240 

First, we must set our goals for a standard of living and quality of life 
(set by the political process). Then rate of growth is designed to main- 
tain these goals by all levels of government. Resources must be developed 
to provide jobs and a certain standard of living. 

We must have growth at least as fast as the government is growing so enough 
profits are generated to provide the taxes to pay the salaries of depart- 
ments created by the bureaucrats. 

Appropriate growth can only be set by the planning process on all levels. 
This growth policy should be determined by the planning process starting 
with local desires following to the national level. 

Growth depends on location of people and availability of raw material and 
labor to create a market for a product of consumer needs worldwide. All 
units of government need to be involved in growth. 

It is growth that meets some national goal but what the citizens are 
willing to accept. 

Appropriate must be determined within the context of the growth and possible 
solutions must be determined at that level. If resolution cannot be 
reached at this level, then the next higher level should be consulted, 
finally culminating at the federal level. 

Appropriate growth maintains a quality environment in the area concerned 
(exploited in some instances) and within this confine lessens unemployment 
and provides creative comforts in the region and the nation. 

Appropriate growth is that which does not engender a short-term nor long- 
term hardship on the human nor natural environment in the area of the growth. 
The level should be set by the citizens in the area of the development. 

Acceptable or appropriate growth has to be whatever growth is desired by 
residents of local areas. If an area has coal and allows it to be developed 
(acquiesces to national demand) it should be their decision whether to allow 
the development and location of the accompanying industry, i. e., coal gasi- 
fication plants. Local standards must prevail. 

II - 241 

Appropriate growth is the necessary level to furnish jobs and homes and 
way of life for the increase in our population. The standard must be 
limited to the availability of our natural resources, but sufficient to 
preserve our form of government. 

Appropriate growth is that which can be accomplished without unnecessarily 
overtaxing the environment, quality of life, standard of life and a myriad 
of other factors affecting our survival on this planet. The people of 
each locality ought to determine what and how much are appropriate for 

"Appropriate" should be growth which protects the quality of life of any 
locality. Growth should not be at the expense of environmental quality. 
Elected officials have the duty to weigh the balance of development and 
resource depletion or degredation. 

Appropriate growth is growth that enhances the ability of citizens on an 
equal basis to achieve their creative potential and that does not prevent 
citizens at a future time from achieving their potential. Levels of 
growth are set by the conflicting demands of individuals being reconciled 
by government and the marketplace, hopefully, on an equitable basis. 

Appropriate growth must be measured in terms of quality of life for present 
and future generations. One of the major tasks before us is to re-examine 
our individual value systems in terms of how our lifestyle affects our well- 
being. If we do this, we are likely to find that our present widespread, 
wasteful practices that are depleting our non-renewable natural resources 
do not contribute to our well -being! 


The growth level should be determined locally to balance the tax needs and 
enhance the local and state economy at the level at which local and state 
demands are. The national need should be assessed in emergency situations. 

Growth that takes into consideration need and invironmental issues 
continue our way of life) at local/state/regional/national level. 


In general -- growth which maintains or diversifies economic base, has 
minimal adverse (social and environmental) impact and maximum (social and 
economic) benefit, manageable population growth and demand for services. 
Growth which provides jobs and economic opportunity. 

II - 242 

The free enterprise system governed by the needs and demands of U. S. 

Appropriate growth is in the eye of the appraiser; hence the subject of 
political processes. Because there is no present national policy regar- 
ding such processes and Congress is the appropriate forum for establishing 
such a policy, there are not any acceptable channels for refining and resol- 
ving the appropriate levels from either the regional or national perspective. 

Appropriate growth is that which meets the economic and environmental needs 
and desires of that region. It is determined on local, regional and national 
levels by mixture of private sector, government and the Federal Reserve 

Growth is a dynamic process. Acceptable growth occurs until the aggregate 
social and economic benefits of growth no longer outweigh aggregate social 
and economic costs. Policy is established by those who decide which econonic 
and social costs and benefits will be included for consideration. Political 
influence and power determine who makes those decisions. 

This depends entirely on the region, its resources, its cultural heritage, 
the aspirations of its people and on and on. The people at the regional 
level make this determination. 

Growth is acceptable if it doesn't result in a reduction in our living 
standards and/or quality of life. The growth rate is chiefly determined 
by decisions made in the private sector, although some of the undesirable 
by-products of growth can and should be addressed by the public sector. 

1. Increases: Human potential and self-reliance. 

2. Benefits: Individual health, education, welfare, and security. 

3. Enhances: Hnvironment and diversity. 

4. Reduces: Discrimination, poverty, disease, sloth, ignorance, exploi- 

tation -- human/natural. 

Appropriate growth is tailored to the physical environment and the social 
well-being of the people. Some sub-areas can accommodate more economic 
and physical growth than others. Growth should be directed toward the 
greatest good for the most people, not for the economic benefit of a few. 

II - 243 

Growth, predicated on environmental quality AND the economy -- and quality of 
life. Its detexmined by citizens, business, industry, agriculture, etc. and 
elected/appointed officials. 

At present, growth policy is determined outside the political or democratic 
processes and is determined haphazardly by the private sector. In a true 
democracy, the national goals would be determined by the voters. These 
goals would, by necessity, be the siom of local and regional goals. Thus 
national growth policy would be the siom of all "community" growth rates, 
recognizing that "growth" can be positive, negative, or zero. 

Growth should close the gap between rich and poor of the world. Obviously, 
the pie cannot get bigger and bigger in a finite world. The direction of 
American enterprise should be toward more labor utilization, by capital 
interest, appropriate technology and revitalization of industry. 

Who sets growth? Elected officials, thus the people. 
Appropriate growth: That growth that improves quality of life. 

Appropriate growth is that which sustains and improves the quality of life. 
The level is derived from individual desires and society's ability to deal 
with those desires. 

Big factor -- All levels of government should recognize need for communi- 
cation and the interdependence of economies, government and social values 
of citizens. The missing factor: Social value of citizens. Support the 
citizens with dollars and conception in each state. People are struggling 
and getting no support. Develop a citizen process and give it dollar support. 
Framework of citizens exists in Montana. Give them some $ support. 

a) Sufficient growth to provide employment opportunities for the region's 
young people, but at a rate gradual enough to adjust to the impacts of growth 
both social and environmental. 

b) State and local governments and private capital expedite approval or 
are very restrictive. 


Appropriate growth is that which is perceived to have greater social and 
economic benefits thai costs -- and this will be determined largely in the 
political arena. 

II - 244 

Appropriate growth is the quanti ty and q uality of growth which meets the 
predetermined goals and desires of the relevant community -- economically, 
environmentally and socially considering the long-term future as well as 
the present. It is growth which is consistent with the cherished lifestyle 
and values of the community and which encourages and nurtures human rela- 
tionships within a physical environment that retains its integrity and 

Appropriate growth is growth that will maximize the desirable and minimize 
the undesirable. Rate determined by maintenance of our standard of living. 

To me, an acceptable growth policy should be one that is well planned within 
given constraints and compliance with all regulatory agencies. This growth 
policy must assure a balanced growth pattern oriented toward future economic, 
political and social needs. 

1. Growth should be balanced with population, economy, productivity, needs, 
desires, goals, meaningful employment, what is best, and for greatest 
numbers . 

2. Regional differences in growth constraints will continue to influence 
population migration patterns. 

Appropriate growth is that growth which produces meaningful jobs for those 
able to work as well as other economic and social benefits which outweigh 
the associated economic and social costs. The weighing in the first instance 
should be done locally. 

Appropriate growth must consider appropriate technology while monitoring, 
not exhausting, a renewable resource base. We recognize that the world 
community must be considered as well as national and regional concerns. 
Appropriate growth is not detrimental to the social and economic aspects 
of the region. The level of growth is developed at the local level, cogni- 
zant of national needs. 

Appropriate growth is that which: 

1. Increases human potential. 

2. Benefits individual health, education, welfare and security. 

3. Enhances the environment; diversity. 

4. Reduces discrimination, poverty, disease, sloth, ignorance and exploi- 
tation of human and natural resources. 

Growth is set by the interaction of goveinment and the private sector. 

II - 24.S 

MR. SCHWINDEN: We do have approximately ten minutes left on the program 
this afternoon. I want to express our appreciation. I have sensed through- 
out some frustration with the kind of time constraints we have dealt with 
this afternoon, and indeed throughout the day. One of the things that we 
discussed yesterday, in what attorneys would call a pre-trial conference, 
as we prepared to put the format together for the conference, was the possi- 
bility of approaching the most fundamental question of all. It was that we 
would use the last 10 or 15 minutes of this afternoon to define what we have 
been talking about all day, that is, growth and the conflicts, constraints, 
frustrations, balancing needs and all the rest. I think it would be very 
interesting to put together 10 or 12 questions and answers to the fundamental 
question of what growth is. How do you perceive it? Is growth only economic? 
I would like to solicit from you what your definition of growth is. I in- 
vite anyone to be number one, 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I had only one overriding issue in the Old West Region 
when I requested the Governor's permission to come. The topics we have dis- 
cussed here today, in my humble opinion , are like putting a band-aid on your 
right finger for a severed leg. The key I hold in my hand is very insignifi- 
cant, but for four thousand pounds of Ford Motor products, it has to tie 
everything together. Net earned income, the production of God-given raw 
material in these United States, is the key to the national economy. Net 
earned income in the production of raw materials would solve the problems 
we have discussed here today. Thank you. 


UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: As I see this, we're struggling with some kind of di- 
rection in balanced growth. It works in a relationship, and the only thing I 
can think of is that you go to these conferences, then you follow the prob- 
lems, and we all go home. Take these issues. I think we all know what the 
problems are. We kick them around in these sessions, but we're going to 
have to take these issues back to the grass roots level with an education 
program, get involved in these issues and dig at them in-depth, take them 
one at a time. If we don't take transportation and its relationship to the 
environment and to the economy, this type of thing, and dig into them at the 
grass roots level, we're never going to find a solution. 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: May I second what the gentleman said. I think too 
little has been brought out. The basis of the economy in the region is 
agriculture. You asked about growth. I say, yes, in agriculture, but I 
have to question many other facets because I think the fallout to a parity 
in agriculture benefits all other facets of the economy. I sincerely be- 
lieve that agriculture has not been addressed in this problem at all. Why 
haven't we addressed agriculture yet? We have had administrations in 
Washington the past decade that promoted a cheap food policy in this country, 
and we out here in the region suffer because of it -- from Bismarck, North 
Dakota, to Nebraska and farther. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: What I understand is that you tie very closely your defini- 
tion of growth to the agriculture segment, at least to health in the agri- 
cultural sector. 

II - 246 


I UNIDENTIFIHD PI-.RSON: Definitely one that uses a renewable resource base 
I for the maintenance of the economy. 

I UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: T would like to add one other aspect which has not 
had much attention at all; and that is the role that tax laws play. Tax 
laws make it very comfortable, very easy for a big company, or any company, 
for that matter, to come along and say, "We have a machine which will do 
what this man can do; and we can depreciate this machine. It's economi- 
cally advantageous for us to do so, so we will get rid of the man." Pretty 
soon the chickens come home to roost, and I think that tax laws have been 
very, very harmful with regard to human beings doing work. Work has become 
a dirty word in this country, and I think it's high time the tax laws were 
revised so that corporations get a tax break when they fire a machine and 
put a human being back to work. After all, we're an economy where capital 
is sure. Machines cost more, and we have a surplus of workers. I think 
we ought to start putting them back to work. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: Again, I don't mean to oversimplify what you said. You 
draw a definition of growth as a movement from capital intensive to labor 
intensive industrial development in the United States? You see that as a 
healthy growth trend? 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I think that would be a healthy growth trend, yes. 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I have a question with respect to what I think we 
were all given as participants, namely, your regional economic plan. We 
have been talking about growth, and yet 1 read that the number one goal 
for the Old West Regional Commission is to increase the per capital per- 
sonal income in the area. I guess I'm really curious at this point as to 
how this particular group looks at this plan and the goal stated here and 
whether everybody is in general agreement with then. The other question 
is how this was to relate to everything that we're doing today. I would 
like to see a clearer articulation of our values in the region. I could 
expand on that, but I don't want to take up more time because I have said 
too much already today. 

MR. SCHWINDEN: Throughout the afternoon, all of us have sensed some frus- 
tration in some of the reports. The fact is that v\e were sort of mouthing 
words rather than getting down to specifics. We sat up here and listened 
and observed; and I think you are going to find that the consensus reports 
of the chairmen arc more explicit, more i)rofound, and more articulate than 
you thought they were when you put them together. There really have been 
some excellent table reports. It is our task over the next two hours to 
go through these summary reports and attempt to digest them into a two-page 
summary, but 1 think we have heard some good ideas. I have repeated over 
and over again the social advantage over economic cost. It seems to me 
those are people values in the region, and 1 guess there is no way in a 
day-and-a-half conference to get down to all the specifics and values for 
the region. Are there any other responses to the overall question? 

MR. STOLNS: Yes, and I'm speaking strictly for myself. I regard the 

II - 247 

whole notion of growth as an incredibly frightening kind of journey into 
the unknown. From a historical perspective, speaking as one who started 
in that field, the historical background we have in terms of planning for 
growth, is very, very foreign and very, very minimal. I hope that is borne 
in mind by everyone as he goes out to sell the growth concept. I know the 
whole concept of growth isn't very popular in America. The history of what 
we have done to our land area at this point is not encouraging compared to 
what we need to plan for in the future. We really need to assess that. 

MR. BLEVINS: I don't want to steal the gentleman's thunder while his words 
are stinging, but 1 have something that has been nagging me. I have been 
here all day, but 1 have to get in my car next week and go out on the road 
to work in Podunk, North Dakota, or wherever, with a community that has a 
decaying business district and needs a new grocery store, or a community 
that needs 500 gallons of water a minute from its city wells, but is only 
getting a hundred. 1 have to help them resolve their problems, not in 
economic growth, but raw economic survival. What 1 have heard today is 
nothing that 1 can take out on the road, notliing that 1 can go up to some 
mayor in his bib overalls with mud on his boots and say, "Here is where we 
can help. Here is where OWRC has said and done things and implemented 
programs that can help you." We have heard seme beautiful words here today, 
and that's about all. They're only words. Wc have to come up with something 
we can take to the people and that will help 1 he people; otherwise, it's 

MR. SCHWINDF.N: I can certainly understand your problem, although, I think, 
in a sense, it's unfair to assess the Old West Regional Commission on the 
basis of this conference which was specif ical y geared toward a White House 
conference on balanced growth. There are Old West Commission programs which 
in effect are doing some of those things now. 1 think it's unfair to say 
this is the only product, but I would agree that the discussions this morn- 
ing are not the sort of thing to keep the Podunk mayor satisfied. 

I would like to see how many people are from the private sector. How many 
are from the public sector? Thank you. 

I have tried to express my own personal appreciation for your cooperation 
this morning. 1 have tried to sympathize with some of your frustrations. 
We have to put together a summary for the Old West Regional reports to- 
morrow morning. If you want to take a little more time, I'm sure we would 
be happy to, but I am now on your time. If you would like to adjourn the 
meeting, I would be happy to. If you would like to discuss other areas, I 
think we could take another 10 or 15 minutes. I leave it to your discretion. 
If I see a mass exit for the door, I have an answer. I think I have an 

Thank you all very much. 

II - 248 




Gerald Whelan 

Lt. Governor of Nebraska 

TIT - 1 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: I think we can commence. We must commence if we are 
going to stay on schedule. I am Jerry Whelan of Nebraska. 

Theme One was chaired by Sam Jensen of Omaha, Nebraska, who is an attorney 
and Chairman of the Nebraska State Commission for Coordination of Post 
Secondary Education. He was assisted by Ted Muenster who is not here. If 
Ted comes in, we would like to have him come up also. If you want to pro- 
ceed, Sam, it's yours. 

Excuse me. We will probably have to repeat this later, but we will attempt 
to follow this format. We have one-half hour. Sam will read the report as 
he has constructed it. Then we will allow for repsonses or comments from 
those who were in Theme One, but it's only appropriate that those who were 
not in that section get an opportunity to respond first. That would be two- 
thirds of us. Try to be brief in your responses, particularly if there are 
quite a few people who want to be heard, because we are going to limit the 
total discussion on Theme One to thirty minutes. 

MR. SAM JENSEN: Thank you. Ted Muenster and I put together an outline. 
It is not my intention to actually read the outline. I would like to go 
through it with you and comment on some of the things that do show up in 
the outline and some of the things that do not. Let me also say that in 
our discussion -- I think, probably, this would be true of many of the dis- 
cussions -- we had some far-ranging ideas. The discussion was about the 
concept of balanced growth and its desirability or, perhaps, lack of desir- 
ability, particularly as it affected smaller communities. We had a few 
statements that came from the idea cards and a few summaries from some of 
the discussion groups which are not reflected here because they did not 
seem to be representative. Maybe some of you from our group are not repre- 
sented in the outline. This is because we tried to stick to what appeared 
to be a majority or a consensus in making the report. 

One theme that did come through in our discussions of places and locations 
as to variables that affected balanced growth concerning places and loca- 
tions within the region was that there is a lack of understanding of the 
problems and opportunities that go along with growth. Of course, when I 
say "opportunities," I know there will be some people in our group who will 
say that is a phrase which has not been proven. I think the consensus was 
that smaller conmiunities were not prepared to understand the opportunities 
and take advantage of them. They certainly did not understand the problems 
of balanced growth in the Old West Region; therefore, it is necessary to 
provide understanding regarding the opportunities and problems. Now, of 
course, this reflected the situation of location and place. In other words, 
we had different problems in different communities. 

The major problem which was discussed, as far as a particular location, 
was the development of energy resources -- the mining or extraction of 
minerals and the resultant changes in the economy taking place and the pro- 
blems of bringing services to that kind of location. That probably was 
the primary idea of place and location. In the first part of the outline, 
we mentioned what the variables were that took place in a location. We also 


mentioned the fact that in our region we have many small, isolated communi- 

I see Ted. You are supposed to be up here to correct me. I think Ted is 
going to take responsibility for this report. I am sure all of you know 
Ted Muenster who is at the University of South Dakota and the alternate to 
South Dakota on the Old West Region. As I mentioned in my introduction of 
him yesterday, probably the most important thing about Ted is that he is an 
alumnus of the University of Nebraska. 

MR. MUENSTER: You want to see my big red T-shirt? 

MR. JENSEN: The problems of communication and of cohesion of interest and 
understanding have to do with isolation of many of the small communities 
throughout the region. The absence of a policy, on less than a regional 
basis, regarding growth is a handicap and probably a deterrent in achieving 
balanced growth and bringing the advantages of growth to the smaller communi- 
ties. Part three of this outline indicates that, as a result, there is a 
belief in small or middle-sized communities that the disadvantages of growth 
may outweigh the advantages. ■ 

It makes a difference if you are talking about bringing a clean, non-pollu- 
ting-type industry, which employs one hundred people, to your community or 
if you are going in and doing some sort of exploitation by the strip method 
of minerals in the community. You talk about industrial growth or economic 
growth and get all kinds of concepts in the minds of people of this region 
from the negative to the positve. You can use the same terms in industrial 
expansion or industrial growth as you can in a concept of balanced growth. 
You get all kinds of ideas. Probably no two people have the same concept of 
what we are talking about. 

Obviously, one of the major variances as it affects place and location are 
climatic conditions and topography. We have complete difference in rainfall 
-- we go from plains to mountains. Of course, with this we have the problem, 
which I mentioned in outline 5, of variance in location of capital. Four of 
the states probably have no basic input of capital, but they have natural 
resources. The mineral resource is one part of the area; agricultural devel- 
opment is another part. Of course, we have variance in the transportation 
facilities. It goes back again to the theme which we have just talked about 
-- the differentials in the knowledge of how growth affects the community and 
its well-being. 

Perhaps our Question No. 2 is actually responsible to Question No. 1. It 
might well be that Questions No. 1 and No. 2 .should be looked at together. 
This is how we approached it in our conference group; What should we do to 
promote opportunities and eliminate barriers? We talked about establishing 
coordinated planning for growth with initial input and consideration coming 
from local communities as opposed to having direction from state or regional 
organizations. Now, obviously, you need coordination in your approach to 
studying problems and opportunities of growth, but the interest of the local 
community should be considered first. In other words, you shouldn't ask 


what problems affect the State of Montana; you should ask what the problems 
are which affect opportunities of small communities of the region. As I 
indicated in the footnote at the bottom of Question No. 2, we are talking 
about something more than a political boundary of a city or a county. It's 
a larger interest group, but we are still talking about communities of much 
less than ten thousand population, for the most part, when we are talking 
about these interest groups or communities concerned about the lack of in- 
formation and opportunity in connection with balanced growth. 

We discussed providing education and understanding of growth problems and 
opportunities. There is a suggestion from a chairman, which did not actu- 
ally surface in the conference on Theme One, to establish sub-regional con- 
ferences on the advent of growth as it affects local government and the 
local economy. I think that is a function which could well be undertaken 
by the Old West Commission. 

We recommended establishing closer cooperation between public and private 
sectors in the development of energy resources for the nation and develop- 
ing some sort of economic trade-off for the region. Many people seem to 
think the negative effects of the energy development do outweigh the ad- 
vantages, but we should give consideration to what are the positive things 
which will come from the economic development in providing jobs for communi- 
ties in this energy development program. One theme which I think was voiced 
in different terms, but meant the same thing, was that most people in their 
concern about balanced growth wanted to be certain that we did not change 
the basic approach to the lifestyle of the rural or small towns as an agri- 
cultural community -- that it would not be disrupted and would not be nega- 
tively affected. This is compatible with one of the existing goals of the 
Old West Commission mentioned in the previous economic report. Preservation 
of the family farm was a theme which many people brought into our conference. 
The family farm, however, meant different things to different people, includ- 
ing some corporate form in many situations but, basically, it meant people 
working the farm who are living on the farm and responsible for the agricul- 
tural operation. 

We also mentioned facing up to certain divisiveness, existing in certain 
parts of the region, which has to do with the problems of the reservation 
system and the economic disadvantages to the Native American population. 
We should provide training in skills and vocations associated with energy 
resource developmental jobs. Obviously, this would be a situation where you 
would be concentrating these efforts on several locations in several places, 
but it would not necessarily be a regional-type concern or regional-type 
approach . 

Now, our Question No. 1 and 2 were fairly general and wide ranging. We 
decided we shoulil look at a couple of specific time questions. We thought 
we could get some answers and count noses on this. It became a little more 
difficult than we thought. The first question is: Should we concentrate 
our limited resources of funds, time and people on the areas where there is 
the most opportunity or in the locations where the disadvantages are the 
greatest? We put this on the blackboard in our group: Best first or worst 

Ill - 4 

For purposes of this discussion, we assumed that there are limited resources 
of funds, time and people. I think that has to be accepted in our planning 
and our approach to the problems of the region. A pretty clear majority of 
those people in our session was of the opinion that it would be best and 
also would be of most advantage, too, if federal, state and local governments 
would concentrate our resources on those areas of greatest potential. In 
other words, if there is a developing economic opportunity, particularly 
in the employment field, you can zero in on it and provide more jobs and 
make the opportunities permanent. At the same time, the use of the resources 
will be compatible with our concept of good living in this region. That's 
probably better than trying to expend a lot of time, money and resources on 
a decaying or substantially disadvantaged area that will make only about a 
five percent difference. If we provide a strong economy, strong resources, 
then there is going to be a spillover, a ripple effect, that will bring up 
the disadvantaged areas. Many people thought we should do both, and no one 
is going to quarrel with that. Maybe, the question wasn't fair. Maybe, 
this assumes facts not in evidence, as we in our profession say. Neverthe- 
less, it does seem to me that it's a reasonable approach. I think answering 
this kind of question is constructive and helpful for those people looking 
at the report. 

Question No. 4: Where disparities of economic opportunity exist, particularly 
in employment, should federal, regional and state policy encourage moving 
people to where jobs exist or attempt to move employment opportunities to 
where people live? Moving people might mean some subsidies for transportation 
and retraining as well as opportunities for housing. The fact is that, as I 
am sure many of you recognize, there have been past experiments which tried 
to create industries, particularly on Indian reservations and other areas, 
which have not been wholly successful. As a matter of fact, people often do 
move where jobs arc located without any encouragement from federal or state 
governments. It's a fact of life that people move where the jobs are. We 
are talking about a policy to encourage moving to new jobs through information, 
through some sort of subsidy program, through developing more housing, and 
through developing more vocational training. We are not in a position, and 
I hope we never are, to actually tell somebody he has to move somewhere. You 
can do this througii incentive programs. This was the idea we were talking 
about . 

As you can see from the report, there was probably no clear consensus. I 
asked Ted for a word which you could use in this sort of thing. It wasn't 
hope; and it wasn't desire. I think probably the best way to express it was 
with a phrase I ditln't think I could write on the board, and that was, "If 
we had our druthers." If the conference participants had their druthers, 
they prol)ably would prefer to move jobs where people are presently living, 
but they did not reject the concept of encouraging people in some instances 
to move where jobs and opportunities are and, perhaps, using federal, state 
or regional policies to facilitate this kind of action. 

We also recognized that in energy development areas, training and relocation 
may be required, especially in developing-type industry -- in the economic 
development of the region. In other words, this is a particular place or 

III - 5 

location where it would be necessary to make this kind of a change or policy 
approach. I think that's enough. Ted, do you have any comments? 

MR. MUENSTER: No. I think you have summed it up very well, Sam. 

MR. JENSEN: All right. Are there any questions or comments that we can 
respond to? 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: We have ten minutes for comments or questions. I would 
like a show of hands of how many wish to ask questions so that we might be 
able to divide the time equitably. There is one hand. Will you move to the 
microphone and give your name. 

MS. ESTHER EDIE: Esther Edie from Bruce, South Dakota. I want to ask a 
question concerning Question No. 2, part 2. I think you said it was added by 
the people who were writing up this report. It did not come from the group. 
Is that correct? 

MR. JENSEN: The example did not come from the group. 

MS. EDIE: I think that is an excellent idea. Some of us were discussing 
last night that there should be sub-regional conferences. Should that not 
be for a cross-section of the public rather than for community and state 
opinion leaders? I think there is always a little problem with getting down 
to what people really want at the grassroots, if there is a selective process, 
that sort of thing. Now, any process must be selective. It does seem to me 
that the Old West Regional Commission might very well be advised to try to 
have these conferences with a good cross -section of people throughout the 

MR. JENSEN: Yes. I think this idea of these conferences would be to have 
opinion leaders. There should be a cross-section of opinion leaders. There 
should be no limitation. It shouldn't be all equals who are associated with 
municipal or local governments. I would think that it should be result- 
oriented and as non-hypothetical as possible. Certainly, all groups, envir- 
onmental groups, labor representives, education representatives, as examples, 
should be included in addition to those persons who have responsibility for 
government and for business through the Chamber of Commerce, and others. The 
idea was that these would be representative opinion and leader-type people 
who would take part in this type of conference. 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: Is there a further comment or question? 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I would like to make a personal comment on the last 
section about whether we move jobs to the people or people to the jobs. My 
opinion is that we should move the people to the opportunities if the oppor- 
tunities come within the geographical area. I am going to give an example. 
The area of Gillette, Wyoming, now has a demand for manpower. The citizens, 
not only the unemployed, but the underemployed, in the western part of our 
state, the Black Hills, have no problem in going to Gillette, because it's 
the same geographical area. It has the same atmosphere as the Great Plains 


area. I spent some time over in Gillette and I find that when these new 
employees travel from North Dakota or South Dakota into the Gillette area 
and find work, they move their families and they adapt readily with no pro- 
blems. When the employees come from other regions, such as Arizona or Cali- 
fornia, they have turbulence in their families. The wife doesn't adapt. 
She is used to looking out at a palm tree. Now, she sees a sage brush. A 
lot of them leave, but I haven't seen any of our people in this region leave. 
I think our underemployed, as well as our unemployed, will move within the 
area because the climate and the atmosphere are the same in our region. If 
we are looking at this question on a national basis and take the attitude 
that we should take the work to the people, when this gets to The White House, 
they will say we have to put the jobs in New Jersey, Pennsylvania, or New York 
because that's where the people are. Our problem really isn't high unemployment. 
1 think our problem is underemployment. 

LT. GOVHRNOR WIIFLAN: We have time for at least one other question. 

MR. JENSEN: 1 might make this comment, if we have a moment. Talking about 
the last statement that was made, we approached this from the basis of the 
region; in other words, transporting people, if they desired, within the 
region to the opportunities. Perhaps some of the reluctance to give stronger 
consideration to the idea of moving people to opportunity locations was the 
very fact which the last conferee addressed -- that these are not pockets of 
high unemployment except in the Indian reservation area. People have diff- 
erent incentives to move to job locations if they have no jobs at all. We 
quite frankly did not address the problems of underemployment. We were look- 
ing at these things from the point of view of place and location and did not 
go into detail that you might expect if you are looking at it on an unemplo- 
ment or underemployment basis. 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: Is there any final comment? That concludes our dis- 
cussion of the report on Theme One. 

Many of you have come in since our opening remarks. We are limiting these 
to thirty minutes. We arc asking the reporters to keep their presentations 
to fifteen minutes, perhaps, twenty, at the most, so that we can have time 
for responses. We are encouraging responses first from those who did not 
participate in Thome Two. After all of those have had an opportunity to 
participate, those who did participate in Theme Two will have an opportunity. 
Are you ready, Jim? 

MR. JIM GRAHL: Tliank you. I assume that you have the summary that was 
prepared for Theme Two which was creating employment opportunities for 
individuals in this region. We thought that the best and fairest thing to 
do was to list the ideas which came out of the workshoj) rather than try to 
summarize them or to generalize them and run the risk of omitting suggestions 
that people in the workshop obviously thought were important. I would 
preface, before going through this report, by saying that the workshop con- 
sidered tills question of creating job opportunities in view of the fact that 
this is a largely agricultural region, with some mining and some other indus- 
try. As has been mentioned here, the need for jobs is not always as apparent 


as it is in the metropolitan areas. The people who cannot get work, in- 
cluding our young people, migrate out of the region, so we tend to some 
degree to keep the unemployment statistics low by forcing people to leave 
the region. The region, on the other hand, is a very productive agricul- 
tural region and it is rich in mineral resources. If the people of the 
region desire more development and desire more jobs, the resources are 
available, but it is a region which is short of capital financing needed 
to develop these resources. 

With those general thoughts and others in mind, the workshop considered 
four subtopics: assuring capital financing; assuring adequate and stable 
farm income; how to proceed with agricultural and other economic develop- 
ment; and the question of employment for minorities. 

Under capital financing, there were a number of ideas proposed, such as 
raising the ceiling on industrial bond issues to ten million dollars. It 
is presently five. Government guarantees for loans for public services 
and community- approved revenue bonds to augment private capital for pri- 
vate industrial development. The next suggestion really is two ideas which 
are not necessarily compatible, I guess, although they seem to be in the 
Tennessee Valley. One is to depend on private enterprise; and the second 
idea was to form a public corporation, such as a Missouri Valley Authority, 
for resource development, including energy development. Regional develop- 
ment bank funded by the states, similar to the Bank of North Dakota. 
Direct federal subsidies and loan guarantees; private sector capital; 
redistribution of tax revenues to encourage reformation of capital ; use of 
a portion of the severance tax for developmental purposes; liberalizing 
tax incentives for private investment; liberalize the use of revenue bonds 
and allow for amortization of investments; put emphasis on labor-intensive 
development; and a general idea of seeing if the input of capital into the 
region could somehow be equal to the outgo of resources. Another suggestion 
was to find ways to keep the profits from industry within the region and a 
more systematic job of identifying the needs for capital resources, both 
public and private. 

With respect to farm income, there were several suggestions for a federal 
commission to establish price floors for all natural resources; a greater 
recognition of agriculture as a major economic resource; rather than a 
Federal Price Commission, the creation of an area or regional policy and 
price control boards to support farm prices; the establishment of a supply 
management program with fixed domestic and international food reserves and 
prices based on parity; the development of alternate uses for farm products 
based on a regional development center which would investigate such alterna- 
tive uses; the establishment of export marketing of farm products on a 
regional basis; the curbing of agricultural imports and greater emphasis on 
the family farm; the development of new products or broader uses of existing 
products from farm produce. The possibility was suggested of a U. S, - Cana- 
dian agreement on prices for exports of grain to increase market stability; 
the federal management of product marketing; the development of more inno- 
vative research on the cost of producing farm products; and better farm 
management based on a changing economy by increasing the effectiveness of 


services provided by land grant colleges, extension services and county 
agents and other farm management programs. 

The third topic was agriculture and energy development. The general idea 
was to consider ways in which the development of agriculture and energy 
development might be had on a compatible basis. There was some emphasis 
on the desirability of recyclying waste products; second, encourage exports 
of agricultural products and encourage the decrease of imports of energy. 
The third suggestion was to use the region as a recycling center for reclaim- 
able wastes from urban areas and for excess farm commodities. A fourth 
idea was the local development of natural resources, using modern technolo- 
gies and local processing of the products of the farm, emphasizing proper 
reclamation of lands, protecting the rights of small farms in respect to 
energy development and surface rights, and looking for ways of employing 
more of the farm population in energy development that might otherwise mi- 
grate out of the region; establishing regional training centers for the rural 
population for the purpose of training them for employment in energy indus- 

The fifth suggestion was to develop laws to protect prime farmland, to 
diversify energy development by considering the impacts of creating job 
opportunities in certain areas, and balancing conservation or emphasizing 
conservation versus production energy; and reducing the use of energy for 
agricultural use. Some of these I will skip because they are repetitive. 
Seek union support for vocational training in lieu of apprenticeship pro- 
grams in certain vocational areas; encourage the solar drying of grain and 
the development of wind energy. I would say we have an enormous wind re- 
source in this region. Community and agricultural water rights should be 
reserved prior to energy development use. There were suggestions for a 
regional water institute to study and straighten out not only engineering, 
but the complicated legal aspects of water rights; a long-range plan for 
development of energy-efficient rural transportation systems for both people 
and products; development of agriculture-related businesses with ent^rgy by- 
products and the construction of more hydroelectric dams with a priority 
for irrigation. The general recommendation was made that social and economic 
impacts ought to be considered as production and development costs, with 
severance tax revenues being used to develop renewable energy resources. 

The fourth topic was employment of minorities. The suggestions included 
encouraging the development and location of industry in high unemployment 
areas, such as Indian reservations, and assisting Tribal groups in the 
training of the local population to match industrial job opportunities; 
providing capital for training minorities for marketable jobs; aggresively 
enforcing an affirmative action plan; promoting the motivation and education 
of increased minority opportunities; working for the treatment of all em- 
ployables as equals, with no social or economic classifications; using tax 
incentives to encourage light industries on reservations and more emphasis 
on family training. A further suggestion was to enhance the understanding 
of the Native American employment needs i)y existing and potential employers 
and encouraging existing institutions which are already working to create 
minority employment; provide alternatives to employment, for example, self- 


employment; and promote the recognition and acceptance of cultural and ethnic 
diversity; promote the local determination of educational and economic growth 
and continue a program of basic education and encourage self-help activities 
by minorities; and create incentives for equal employment opportunities in 
apprenticeship programs under joint union management contracts. 

These are good ideas, but we all recognize, I am sure, that it's not enough 
for us to discuss the problem of creating more jobs, either at conferences 
like this or ultimately at The White House level. It seems to me that all 
of us, and not just the federal government, have a responsibility to do what 
we can to help develop a society in which everyone who wants to work can get 
a job and in which people who want training to qualify for a better job can 
get that training. It is utterly demoralizing, I am sure, for a person who 
wants to work to be unable to get it. I saw this in the case of my own 
father, and I know what it did to him. I think that we should recognize more 
than we have today that society, as a whole, really does have a responsibility 
to provide the opportunities for employment to people who want to work. Our 
workshop did not take up the question, but it seems to me that if this means 
public service sector jobs or programs like the Civilian Conservation Corps, 
then we should have those, too. 

That completes our summary. Jerry Plunkett is on my right. He was Co- 
Chairman of the workshop. Dave Brown prepared this summary. He was our 
recording secretary. Jerry, do you have additional comments that you would 
like to make? 

DR. JERRY PLUNKETT: When we were considering jobs, I realized, that as 
you read the summary, the idea of jobs would appear to be that someone has 
to be employed by someone else. This is a conclusion you could draw from 
those ideas, but it is not ture. When we talk about capital, we are talking 
about capital for small businessmen or artisans who want to start their own 
shop in Hysham as well as when we are talking about bringing General Motors 
with an assembly plant into the area. In fact, this idea of integrating new 
kinds of employment opportunities for individuals, particularly that relate 
to the family farm, was a theme that was not as well developed in this out- 
line. The great excellence of this region, I think, is from the diversity 
and capacity of the population to innovate and to work on its own without 
supervision. This idea of self-employment probably should have been given 
more stress. I hope we can correct that in some sort of a position paper on 
the idea of employment through small business opportunities and make sure that 
small businessmen have the capital they need to establish those activities. 

The idea of self-employment and the idea of compatibility with the predomi- 
nant agricultural activity seem to me to be very important. For example, 
we do not yet have the numbers, but we believe that in Montana today , the numbei 
of new jobs that are being created through self-employment of artisans in the 
State, around Missoula, is greater than the number of people who ara being 
employed in energy development. If that is actually true, that would be 
almost revolutionary. Now, some people say they don't have good jol)s in terms 
of the number of dollars of income, but I think that people have thi right to 
decide what kind of employment is satisfactory to them. Thus, we run smack up 

^11 - 10 

against the wall of using the traditional indicators of the per capita income 
as a kind of index or measure of the quality of life. People very well may 
prefer to work on their own, accept a smaller dollar income and trade that 
off against their own availability and flexibility of time and freedom versus 
the eight-to-five job. When you read these recommendations, it's very impor- 
tant to keep in mind that we are not thinking --at least I wasn't and I 
trust that we write this in someway -- in terms of purely industrial stand- 
dard eight-to-f ive jobs. That kind of compatibility is as important as the 
recommendations themselves. 

' (Applause.) 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: Is there a response or comment from anyone who did 
not participate in Theme Two? We have two hands. We will start with you. 

m. NORMAN ORAVA: Just very brief comments. I am Norman Orava from the 
School of Mines. The report contains such words a "development of solar and 
wind energy." It should also contain the terms "geothermal energy." There 
is considerable potential in the region for that. Thank you. 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: It's a sin of omission, I am sure. 

MR. ALLAN BRACKE: Allan Bracke, Mitchell, South Dakota. Just a personal 
comment in regard to this. Oftentimes, tliere are a great many programs for 
which businesses can apply for assistance from the federal government. 
However, I have just gone through the entire procedures of all the applica- 
tions, all the paperwork, everything, and was disapproved because my company 
is a service company, not a manufacturing company. That was what disqualified 
me. I was going to provide a service to the people of South Dakota, in my 
own state, and not going to manufacture a product, on the assembly line, 
which goes snap, crackle, pop, whiz, bam or boom. This disqualified me for 
any type of government assistance. 

MR. DON LEHR: Don Lchr from Far-Mar-Co., Omaha. I have a question under 
paragraph H. We are talking about federal management of product marketing 
for distribution. I hope you are not talking about federal management of 
grain marketing. 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: Do you mean in the United States-Canada agreement? 
MR. LEHR: Yes. 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: I think it was. As a matter of fact, I was in that 
session. 1 think the comments were directed toward a joint USDA-Canadian 
agreement, an OPEC-typc operation. 

MR. LEHR: But the way this is stated, federal management of product marketing 
for distribution could be taken for all marketing. 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: There was discussion of that -- price support marketing 
or marketing limitations and price support. Yes, there was discussion of 

Ill - 11 

MR. DON LEHR: I think we need to have the other side presented also. 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: That is fine, but I believe that's what was meant by 
the discussion. The microphone is yours to discuss the other side. 

MR. LEHR: If we are looking at federal management, we often run into all 
kinds of problems. 1 don't want to get too involved in the grain business, 
but even the federal inspection service has inherent problems. I am not 
sure that the majority of the people in this region would want federal man- 
agement of all marketing systems. 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: I think the discussion determined that the free system, 
without federal management, has brought us to the place where we are over- 
producing and we are getting far less than cost. Federal management meant 
to establish a two-price system, guaranteed price on a percentage marketing 
quota, and things of this nature. 

MR. LEHR: If that's what you are referring to, let's qualify it. 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: I think that is what was being discussed. 

DR. PLUNKETT: I think there are many ideas in here which were not voted 
on and agreed on by everybody. This does not represent a majority point 
of view, but rather a collection of ideas which reflect a broad spectrum 
of people's thinking. I don't agree with all of them by any manner of means, 
but it wasn't our job to do that. What we did was make it as inclusive as 

MR. LEHR: I realize that. I only want to state that is a minority view- 
point so we just don't have that idea going in. 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: The English language probably improves with refine- 
ment, but distillation doesn't help it particularly. 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: If I may, I did participate in this same discussion. 
I was in a discussion one time when Secretary Butz was Secretary of Agri- 
culture in Washington, D. C. One of the farmers asked him if they were going 
to allow us free access to the market. He said, "Domestic market, yes; in- 
ternational market, no." Now, I don't know how we are going to solve that 
problem, but I would like to, if possible. Maybe this is not the time to 
add to this. 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: You have eight minutes. 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: It won't take me long. I think it's important to 
point out that there are international trade agreements which will soon be 
going on, if they are not going on right now, over in Geneva, in relation 
to wheat. They are trying to work up an international wheat agreement. We 
all know that the United States is the greatest, the biggest exporter of 
wheat in farm commodity. We are the warehouse of food and fiber. 1 would 
like to add to paragraph H. , "Obtain U. S. -Canadian agreements on prices for 

III - 12 

export of grain for stability of world market." Beyond that, I would add, 
". . . and urge our federal government to take the lead in the international 
agreements in Geneva to price our farm commodities at no less than 100% of 
parity in the world market." There are many things that could be said about 
this as to our deficit balance of trade. As you mentioned, this was brought 
up, basically, because thirteen OPEC countries could get together and come up 
with a price for their product, which is probably unfair, but they did it, and 
we are suffering for it. There are only about five of us -- United States, 
Canada, Australia, Argentina and, possibly, France -- that would have to get 
together. We have commitments from these countries that they will agree if 
the United States will take the lead. 

LT. GOVERNOR WUELAN: Wc do have tJic problem, anytime in any part of the 
country, of turning almost any coni'erence into a farm conference because 
farming is number one. It is most important, and we discussed it in almost 
every section yesterday, but we are talking, generally, about balanced growth 
and how it relates to the farm. We could have four conferences on agricul- 
turally-related problems alone. 

Would you like to comment, sir? Please give your name. 

MR. EDWARD AUF.T : Edward Ault. It was mentioned here that this does not 
represent a consensus. It wasn't voted on. I got the impression that the 
first group arrived at a consensus more than we did on this Theme Two. If 
this is not a consensus of the group, we should make sure that is clear 
when we pass this information along to the national conference because there 
were a lot of things said here that were voted on. 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: Theme Two is reported entirely differently thant Theme 
One was. Theme One attempted to draw together and analyze what was there 
and made a report. This is not critical, but this Is a different approach. 
This is not even abstracted or analyzed. This merely set forth everything 
that was collected, and no attempt at editorializing has been made. Whethe." 
that's good or bad, this is what it is. The record now shows that because 
what we say here is going to be part of it. Theme Two is not a consensus; 
it's just the raw data that was collected at the conference. 

UNIDENTIFIliD PERSON: Going back to this gentleman's concern on paragraph 
r (h) , T think what it says is "... federal management of products marketed 
ior distrbution." As I interpret that, they are saying federal management 
of agriculture products. His objection was he didn't want all products 
under federal management. 1 would suggest that they define that as agricul- 
ture products, if that's what they mean. 

I-T. GOVERNOR WliELAN : He meant agriculture products. 

MR. AUI.T: I meant the grain. 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Let mr. express my concern for Item 1 (c). When you 
have a form of public corporations, such as the Missouri Valley Authority 
in there, I am very concerned that this is not interpreted as a recommendation 

III - 13 

in some report without knowing if the people really support this. I see 
that as different than all the other recommendations in that you are actually 
assigning authority to somebody to make your decisions for you. My honest 
feeling is that the people in this area would not tolerate such a thing as 
that, so I am concerned that when you put that down in brief form that it 
cannot be a recommendation. I guess I am just trying to reemphasize what 
the gentleman before me talked about. I would like some clarification on 
that. I would like to know what's going to happen when you put, "Form a 
public corporation such as the Missouri Valley Authority -- period." 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: In the first place, (c) is contained within a conflict. 
It says, "... depends on private enterprise . . . form public corporation." 
That doesn't fly. There has been enough discussion here that this is just a 
compilation of raw suggestions by everybody there, and nobody agrees with 
everything in there. I don't know that we need to. This is going to go to 
Washington as part of our report. There has been enough discussion by you 
and others that this does not represent the consensus of the people atten- 
ding this foriom. 

I would like to add one comment. I participated in this. It seemed to me 
that our table discussed a matter that I think did not get sufficient 
emphasis here. That's the overflow of capital from the region; at least, 
in our state, and I think it's true of every state in the Old West Region. 
We export capital because there isn't enough demand for capital. Our savings 
and loans and our banks have an abundance of total assets. Now, they are 
loaned up on farm loans, but that doesn't relate necessarily to the capa- 
bility to make loans. This money is exported to major financial centers, 
such as Denver, Chicago and New York. There are bankers in Nebraska that 
are hired for the sole purpose of renting money by the day, and this is ri- 
diculous when we have such a demand to intensify our own agricultural economy, 
such as confined feeding and higher development of our natural resources, as 
well as agricultural products. Somewhere or another, the Old West Region 
could attack the problem of a concerted, well-conceived program to keep the 
capital assets within the area for development of existing industries. We 
don't need to import industries. We have them here. At least, in our com- 
munities, we find that the best industries are the little, home-grown indus- 
tries that need additional capital. They are always the best because, as 
somebody said, they're right at home. They can continue. 

Do you have any final comments here before we wind this up? Thank you both. 
There has been a little criticism about the manner of this report. We are 
open people, and we like to say what we think. Some people didn't like the 
form of the report. And so be it. We will go on to Theme Three. 

Dr. Myron Johnsrud and Bill Glennon will present the next theme. Again, for 
those of you who came in late, we're attempting to keep the presentaton to 
about fifteen minutes by the presentors. That will allow you around fifteen 
minutes for responses. 

DR. MYRON JOHNSRUD: We will certainly attempt to keep within the time. 
Bill and I were Just discussing the merits of presenting each of the topics 

III - 14 

^iid then having questions following that topic. We may have a little bit of 
a time problem that way, but our comments will be brief on our topics. Our 
topic addressed the fiscal capacity and service delivery problems of govern- 
ments, sort of a broad, pervasive type of question. We did attempt to summarize 
the multitude of thoughts that came from the group and hopefully have some- 
what accurately and completely reflected that. I can assure the members of 
our group that we did go through the individual cards. I do want to state 
here, as I have done to the Old West staff, that I think we would be remiss 
if we .simply put those cards in the cabinet and didn't go through them very 
carefully. There are some most interesting and challenging thoughts on these 
individual cards that did not necessarily show up clearly in the group con- 
sensus statement. 1 would hope that the Old West Commission would follow ' 
through and digest those cards. 

We started out with a general question that was related specifically to the 
fiscal capacity and service delivery problems of communities in the Old West 
Region, the purpose being to set the stage for the lopics that followed. 
Bill and I will share the discussion of these topic.. We will start with 
No. 1, and 1 will ask Bill to comment on that. Mr. Chairman, if it's agree- 
able with you, we will take questions following our l)rief comments and move 
to the next topic. 

LT. GOVERNOR WMELAN: Fine. It might even be more orderly to do that. 

MR. BILL GLLNNON: Thank you. We wrote these comments after our meeting. 
I took Questions No. 1 and 3; Dr. Johnsrud took Que.'tions No. 2 and 4, 
As was evident in the last session, there was no real method to say there 
was a consensus on some issues. Where disagreement was evident, it was 
fairly clear. What we have, quite frankly, is largely our interpretation 
of the table reports and the individual comments. We tried to get some 
feeling for what seemed to be generally acceptable overall. We had a rather 
small group compared to the other two, but it was a very hardworking group; 
and there were a number of people directly connected with local government 
units who were experiencing these problems on a day-to-day basis. We have 
what I thought was very good and very insightful coimnents and reactions. 

In Question No. 1, wc attempted to deal with the overall problem which is 
that there are a number of local communities that find themselves very heav- 
ily pressed to come up with the money to provide all the services and programs 
that are either mandated or are demanded by the citizens of those communities. 
The first part deals witli the way people looked at :he problems. Then, as 
part of that, a number of people immediately came up with some solutions or 
policies to try to ameliorate these fiscal capacity problems. The first one 
I will comment on Is broadening the tax base of local governments. In that 
sense, they were talking about geographic broadening rather than in some 
sort of tax programs. 

The second one was transferring taxing capacity down to the local level. 
You might also look at number eight, to modify statutory and constitutional 
limitations on local government , that might allow thorn increased taxing ca- 
pacity. T am not sure whether this means revenue-s taring with additional 

111 - 15 

monies being passed down to the local level or actually giving the locals the 
taxing authority, so there may be comments that people want to deal with. 
Generally, there seems to be an emphasis on some sort of planning and avoid- 
ing the government bureaucracies; in other words, to avoid finding the 
fiscal capacity strained when it's too late to change it. 

There was mention of eliminating overlapping jurisdiction and duplication 
through better studies and knowledge about what the real problems were and 
what resources were available to deal with them before implement at ing pro- 
grams; increasing the input of citizens and local officials throughout the 
whole process of these programs, especially right from the beginning; and, 
of course, increasing the flexibility of programs so they could be adapted 
to the local conditions and needs. 

I think I will stop there and open it up for questions. I am sure there 
are additional elements of this problem and a number of other possible ways 
to try to resolve some of the issues that many of you have. If there aren't 
any questions, we will go on to the other three which deal with some of 
the same issues. 

DR. JOHNSRUD: Question No. 2 can be read on your sheet of paper so that 
we don't have to repeat a lot of things said there. The essence of it is 
how to deal with disparities in basic services because of differing fiscal 
capacities of communities. We included the first statement because it seemed 
to be the thread that ran through the comments that you have to have fiscal 
responsibility at all levels. It may seem as if it's a give-away. As the 
economists say, there is no such thing as a free meal, and you cannot say, 
"Give me, give me," without wondering where it's going to come from. 

It was suggested that there is a need to prioritize some of the require- 
ments- of communities, or whatever entity of government asks for assistance, 
and to help equalize these services. Watch that next phrase, "maximum 
local effort." I think we could have quite a discussion on maximiam local 
efforts, such as in taxation. If I may comment on that, I think it's 
difficult to use the term "maximum." Maybe a more descriptive term is 
"comparative" -- a comparative effort with other communities in the region 
or state. That may be one basis to get at this, to see if, in fact, this 
community that's having some problems is attempting to be consistent with 
related communities within the region or state. There was continual com- 
ment about the importance of communications between local, state and federal 
governments in matters of setting goals and objectives; also, to promote 
incentives for local initiative instead of rewarding local inaction. It 
shows up in all of these topics that those imposing such rules and regula- 
tions are responsible for assisting in some way with compliance. As you 
look at the individual cards, you will see it was not always recommended 
that money be handed out, but instead maybe technical assistance or other 
help in meeting these requirements. I think that's an important concept 
to remember from this discussion. 

In a number of cases, it was pointed out that there is the need to define 
what constitutes disparity of basic services and then to define to the 

III - 16 

finest extent possible the specific responsibilities of various levels of 
government, but, also, there is the need for flexibility in programs. You 
will find, as you look at some of these cards, that standards for one area 
are not necessarily appropriate standards for another area of the country. 
We have all heard about this, but I am only trying to illustrate that there 
were many, many things said that did not surface in the group consensus, but 
which are very important and need special attention before carrying this 
forward to The White House conference. 

I will stop with that. Are there any questions? Let's move on to the next 



MR. BILL GLHNNON: Question No. 3 dealt with the fiscal and administrative 
responsibilities by the level of government that makes the laws or standards 
and the level of government which must comply, gene^-ally, with the law- 
setters and standard-makers being higher and compliance being at the lower 
level. We see a lot of the same themes being shown that have already been 
discussed. I think there are two things that we will get a little discus- 
sion on. In what seemed to be the majority, it was said that the acting 
level of government should insure that adequate fiscal resources are avail- 
able to carry out the program. Now, insuring that they are available doesn't 
necessarily mean they supply them. As I interpret Lt, it means you don't 
mandate a program without being sure somebody is going to be able to carry 
it out and finance it. Then there was the other part of the question we 
dealt with which was, who, in fact, should pty? And at this point I could 
not find any particular agreement. One tabic said that whoever makes the 
lower standard has the responsibility to pay for it. Perhaps the middle 
position was that there should be some sort of sharing of funding thiough 
various levels of government. From the othei end. It was thought the funding 
should be primarily at the local level with iissistance provided from higher 
levels only after they have reached some sort of maximum tax effort. We 
get this very nebulous type of maximvun tax eifort, l)ut there was no apparent 
agreement, particularly in our group, that showed up from the report? at 
the tables as to whether it could be assigned to any specific level of 
government or any particular division of funding responsibilities assigned. 
That may be an area where a few people would comment because we couldn't 
discern any particular agreement as to exactly how some of these responsi- 
bilities for funding would be allocated. 

i I will stop with that and maybe some people want to get some words in on that. 

DR. JOHNSRUD: There is one thing that's for sure this morning. Mr. Chairman, 
i with your agreement, we arc not going to carry past the coffee hour. 

LT. GOVLRNOR WHI-.LAN: That's correct. 

DR. JOHNSRUD: Finally, Qiiostlon No. 4 dealt with issues concerning rapid 
growth areas or areas that may be rapidly deilining or slowly declining or 
impact areas. Of course, we have some of that going on in the region. It 
shows up here again in the matter of flexibility of programs and timely 
responsiveness and the matter of situations developing due to something 

III - 17 

beyond the control of the local entity of government. There is some obli- 
gation of other levels of government, and in parenthesis, you will note 
". . . and perhaps the private sector." We see some of that going on in 
the region, where they are a part of the partnership, if you will, to help 

communities meet the public service needs of that community in a reasonable | 

and practical fashion. Related to this -- and if I can just expand a moment | 

-- there is, oftentimes, I believe, a thought that when there is an impact i| 

on the community, the first thing you think of is grants. What can we get ? 

to help us meet this? Maybe we need to broaden our thinking. You will see '^ 

this show up again as you look at the individual responses. One of our i 

groups did talk about the matter of loans to a community, and a loan very | 

simply means something that will be repaid. Once this community has established | 

a tax base, that is. commensurate with its needs, then it should be in a posi- J 

tion to liquidate and to operate without outside support and assistance. I "j 

believe there is some legislation now being drafted at the national level 'i 

that will relate to some of this. You could also think about revolving funds | 

a state may establish to help communities. Maybe some states here have that, i 

but there are many ideas that relate to this. Our point is that we do not I 
want to just simply get trapped into the idea that the grants are the way to 
go. They may be one source. That was the essence of that item. 

The other item they talked about was declining communities. The group seemed 
to have trouble with that one. They suggested they might want to look at 
consolidation or assigning responsibilities to some other entity of govern- 
ment because you simply don't have the resources to provide that service in 
the community. I think this topic, for some reason, seemed to lend itself to 
responses at the policy level suggestion and principal level suggestion 
rather than operational techniques to meet these concerns. That, obviously, 
has to be the next step. Somebody is going to have to bite that bullet in the 
decision-making circle at state and federal levels. 


Let's stop there to see if there are questions or comments. 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: 1 would like to make a comment. I was not in this session. 
The community of Bellevue, Nebraska, is tremendously impacted by the federal 
government because that is SAC headquarters. As a result of that, they re- 
ceive substantial funds for the school system. They couldn't operate without 
it, because we operate in Nebraska totally on property taxes, and the military 
base has no property tax. Thousands of people live there, and many of them 
live on base or in federal government housing, so it is absolutely essential 
that the federal government assists the Bellevue school district. It provides 
no other help to Bellevue, so you can imagine the impact on the police depart- 
ment of Bellevue or on the sheriff's department of Sarpy County when they have 
twelve or fourteen thousand military personnel right on the base. Those gov- 
ernments suffer. Their streets suffer. Their government structure suffers 
because there is no help from the federal government for any branch of 
government other than the school district. 1 think that the federal govern- 
ment owes something there to an impacted area. Perhaps there is a corollary 
of this in other parts of the region, both military and in the energy field. 

MR. MICHAEL ENZIE: I am Mike Enzie, Mayor of Gillette, Wyoming. I appreciated 

III - 18 

your comments about the town looking for grants rather than loans. I think 
that the towns would be happy with loans provided that they could have 
accompanying loan guarantees. A growth town or a declining community cannot 
guarantee that a given amount of revenue will come in any given year. They 
may be able to show it over a long term, but over the short term, you may 
not have the two thousand people who are expected in the given summer. As 
a result you wouldn't have that maximum tax effort that's also emphasized, 
so I think it's important, when you talk about loan.s, that you also talk about 
some loan guarantees. 

LT. GOVERNOR WHl-LAN: Any others? 

MR. JAMES STF.PHnNS: I am Jim Stephens from Montana I have a question. 
I wonder if there was any discussion on consolidating small towns with 
regard to schools and services, and so forth? 

DR. JOHNSRUD: Yes. Again, the groups did not get that specific because of 
the time constraint, but they did talk about consolidation as one alterna- 
tive or, as I mentioned a moment ago, assigning certain functions to the 
lower level of government. Let me use an example. We have a situation 
where counties in certain states in the West have vory small population, but 
in North Dakota, I think I am correct, it's a requirement to h; ve certain 
kinds of county officials. That may be somewhat outdated. Ma} be there is 
some need to consolidate some of those because of simple effic ency of oper- 
ation. It's an emotional issue. Maybe that's why our group si ayed away 
from detail, because some of these things are rather emotional 

LT. GOVl-RNOR WHELAN: We have a lot of this in Nebraska, and, i'rankly, we 
don't think the consolidation of counties is that big a deal b';cause county 
government isn't that expensive. Quite often, they share coun y attorneys 
and even county sheriffs. School is another ballgame. Schools cost money. 
It's very difficult to consolidate or merge schools. We have ried both the 
stick and the carrot. They consolidate when it's in their economic best 
interest and not necessarily in the best interest of education. That's a 
sad report, but I think it's fair. 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I would like to call attention to the fact that in 
Montana we finished, as of several months ago, about a three-year study on 
local government modernization, giving local governments most of the options 
that are listed here. We have a local government code that is completely 
rewritten -- yet to pass. If any of you are really interested in studies on 
restructuring local government, we hiive some very good research reports. I 
tliink they would be about that high (indicating), if you piled them all up. 
Il's been gratifying. Some of our cities have changed their forms of govern- 
ment. l!vory town, every county in the State of Montana, over i two-year per- 
iod, had a study commission which looked at their lorms of loc il government, 
the opportunities for the kinds of changes that would make then more effec- 
tive and made recommendations. Only a few actually changed thjir form of 
government; but, on the other hand, I would say most of them, ^ven though 
the form hadn't changed, made really significant moves toward nore effective 
local government. We would be glad to share that report. There is a lot of 
good information. 

Ill - 19 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: One of the problems there, I think, is the fact that 
many of these mandates don't come from the federal executive government 
or the congress, but from the federal courts, particularly when you are 
dealing with mental retardation and education or the blending of both of 
them. It's very difficult to tell the United States Supreme Court, "You 
have prescribed this, now you pay for it." You tell that to the United 
States Congress and you tell it to the Executive Branch, but you can't really 
tell it to the Judicial Branch. Another factor in this -- and I am sure most 
of the states are the same when we are talking about maximizing local tax 
efforts -- our schools are supported fundamentally by the property tax. I 
think most people in the basin are, or the people in the Old West Region are, 
so we are talking about mill levies. You will have a school district that 
is property rich, has a great deal of property, but the people who live there, 
particularly in the last two years, have no income or very low income. This 
is always thrown up to us. Sure, we have a lot of property, but we have it 
on paper. We are not making as great an effort, but, actually, we are writing 
checks for this; and that comes out of our bank accounts, not out of our land. 
It's very difficult. When you talk about maximizing effort, are you talking 
about their net worth or are you talking about their income? 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Most of you are probably already aware of it. I will 
point out that there is a new law, a tax payment program with the federal 
government, under Public Law 94-565, entitlement land payments. The first 
payments were made on September 30 of this year. This didn't solve all your 
problems by any stroke of the imagination. It was rather small -- a hundred 
million dollars that was split up -- but this is based on valuation of land. 
I don't have the figures. Just as an example, the local units of government 
in Montana received approximately $8.8 million; South Dakota approximately 
$1.7 million; and North Dakota, I believe, got about a half million. That's 
all prorated on the value of the land. I am not sure of all of the formulas 
that went into it. This is supposed to be a continuing program. This is the 
first year it went out. Once the money starts flowing into the counties, 
they start getting this in addition to some other payments. There are some 
very complicated formulas to allow for payments already received. The Bureau 
of Land Management is an example. I think this may be of some help. You 
might want to approach your congressmen to have that kitty increased, if 
it's of some help to you in cases like that. 

MR. JOHN THOMPSON: John Thompson, Economics Department, South Dakota Uni- 
versity, Brookings. A couple years ago, I had an opportunity to study some 
of the regional development policies of foreign countries. The role of 
government can be a very important factor in influencing where economic 
activity occurs. There arc many things that governments can do. We have 
already talked about our problem of more fully employing our people, of 
stimulating industrial development to create more employment opportunities, 
and of raising the per capita income of our people in the region. If region- 
alism means what the federal government is talking about, that is, trying to 
get greater balance among regions in terms of growth and development, there 
are things it can do. One of the things that seems to have been successful 
in some of the countries is to have variable interest rates for capital for 
industrial development projects. In other words, if an industry locating in 

III - 20 

a region, such as ours, were able to secure federal funding at a lower 
interest rate than another area, that stimulates development. The other is 
that it can decide where it is going to put government installations or 
activities. It can do something about moving the jobs to the people. In 
other words, what has happened in some of the experiences in foreign coun- 
tries is that they have tried to move people to jobs. The educated people 
moved to the jobs. What is left is a worse situation than what existed 
before. I think there are a lot of things that the federal government can do, 
but certainly it is not the only source of activity for regional development. 
As a region, we ought to have some kind of posture or strategy or position 
in terms of what we would like to have the federal government do to stimulate 
economic development here. 

MR. DICK PALMER: I am Dick Palmer from Bismarck with the NDEA Education 
Association. I noticed you had in parenthesis, when talking about responsi- 
bility of local, federal and state governments -- ". . . and perhaps the 
private sector." What methods or payment of taxes or what sort of respon- 
sibility did you talk about when you talked about the private sector? 

DR. JOHNSRUD: If I recall correctly, it showed up on some comment cards 
that industry moving into an area may provide some front-end money, for 
example, to assist that community with getting some schools, employees, or 
some planning. There are examples of this going on in the region. It may 
be money that is repaid or not repaid by the private sector. We are talking 
about private industry that may move into the area. That's the way I inter- 
preted the response on some of the cards, not the public in general, but the 
public sector business. 

LT. GOVERNOR WIIELAN: The word, "communication," comes up here occasionally. 
The president of the largest dog food manufacturing concern in America 
called a national meeting of all of his salesmen because sales dropped off. 
They met in Chicago, two thousand of them. This president had come up the 
ranks through the sales branch of the company, and he was a very dynamic, 
bombastic sort. He got up before these two thousand salesmen and asked, 
"Who makes the best dog food in the world?" They responded, '%3 do I" 
He asked, "Who packages most attractively so the housewife just has to 
grab that package when she goes down the aisle?" They all said, "We dol" 
He asked, "Who has the best price structure so that the product is the most 
competitive in America?" Two thousand voices came back, "We del" Then he 
said, "I want to ask you one further question. Why have sales fallen off?" 
A little fellow clc ir in the back of the room stood up and said, "The damn 
dogs don't like it." 

Now, that may be the case when some of us try to make policy an J we can't 
I understand what happened to the policy. With that, we are going to have a 
half -hour break. It woiald l)e good if we get back here, ready to go at 


LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: Our break is over. We now move to Theme (-our. The 
chairman of this section was Don Erickson, Mayor of Cheyenne, Wyoming. He 

III - 21 

was assisted by Warren White of the Planning Office of the State of Nebraska. 

MR. DON ERICKSON: We are dealing with economic impact here in our region. 
I h;ive been here since Sunday evening, and I have been hearing quite a bit 
about CBS's impact on the State of Wyoming, in particular. Rock Springs, 
Gillette, and Green River. My colleagues from Green River and Gillette are 
here. We decided that it was very timely for us to leave Wyoming. Next week 
on Sunday evening, Dan Rather and company will be going at it again. The 
title of that segment will be "High Noon in Cheyenne," so I think it might be 
wise for me to find another conference to attend next Sunday. 

The workshop that I am going to report dealt with the topic of recognizing 
the impact of the public sector on the geographic distribution of economic 
activity and population. We concluded that what it meant is: What is the 
goal of the public sector in influencing economic development and growth and 
working toward balanced growth in this area? 

Four questions were generated by the workshop leaders: How to maximize 
federal impacts on local economies; how to create opportunities for com- 
munities to influence public policy development; how the public sector can 
influence economic activity in the Old West Regional communities; and, 
finally, how the public sector can complement the private sectpr in devel- 
oping economic opportunities. 

On the first one, maximizing federal impacts on local economies, there was 
a number of people who said, "Maybe it's not maximized; maybe its minimized." 
There was kind of a divergence of opinon as to whether the objective was 
maximizing or minimizing. We found that federal programs should be an out- 
growth of explicitly, stated needs of local, state and regional interest; 
that we should require -- and I stress "require" -- that the public sector 
require citizen and local input when drafting major federal and state pro- 
grams; and federal funds should be used to bolster local economies after 
decision-makers at the local level have achieved a consensus on needed 
programs. In the reports that came up after this discussion, there were 
some key words that seemed to flow rather continuously and frequently, 
such as local needs, local uniqueness, local problem-solving, local deter- 
mination, and understanding of local needs. That question, maximizing 
federal impacts, seemed to provide a climate for a catharsis in our group 
so that people who may not have had an opportunity to speak about federal 
programs and how federal programs are impinging on a community, used this as 
time to say, "Let's start looking at how to involve the local citizenry, 
provide groups in the community and not necessarily have a series of programs 
designed at the top and then brought down for implementation at the communi- 
ty level." 

The second question was how to create opportunities for communities to in- 
fluence public policy and take advantage of existing mechanisms and institu- 
tions which are currently in place. We have a number of existing agencies, 
like state development agencies, local, private and public development cor- 
porations, and the Old West Regional Commission. In fact, one of the par- 
ticipants felt that we should work very hard to make sure that the federal 

III - 22 

Igovernment is aware of our understanding of the regional economic plan that 
las been developed by tlio Old West Region. This is a good opportunity for 
IS to collectively present that plan with revisions to the federal level. 

[I was somewhat struck yesterday when Dr. Koleda said that there is a good 
iebate going on between the Sunbelt and the Snowbelt. It seemed to us in 
|our particular group that we might have an opportunity to talk about the 
lEnergy Belt and spend some time debating with the rest of the country about 
tour needs and get some attention at the national level. Maybe, in the future, 
Iwhen Dr. Koleda is talking to other groups, he will include the Energy Belt 
[as well as the Snowbelt and the Sunbelt. 

Creating opportunities would include public information meetings, town hall 
meetings, other public awareness sessions and public education programs. 
As part of this effort, feedback from all constituents would be necessary 
for considering the total viewpoint in public policy development and future 
implementation. The key word that was consistently raised in the discussion 
was communication, not only one-way communication, but two-way communication 
-- feedback from the various localities -- not only to the federal level, 
but to the state level. It would include public awareness, an educational 
process, and promoting the understanding of current mechanisms to implement 
economic development in our respective locals and states. I am becoming 
much more familiar with the vast number of economic opportunities that we 
have throughout this region from the various ways in which the region has 
organized private groups, public groups, and the citizens to advance economic 

The third question was how the public sector should influence economic ac- 
tivity in the Old West Region communities. The public sector ;.hould be an 
active force in identifying needs, stimulating state and local economies 
and coordinating the solution of regional and local problems with assistance 
from public and private investments. This would include identcfying the 
proper role of each level of (you might put "proper role" in quotes because 
I am not sure that any of us really concluded what the proper ^ole would be) 
government and the private sector in solving the idcmtified problems and 
issues. Included in this would be a reduction in the uncertainties associ- 
ated with public regulatory actions; improve the quality and flow of infor- 
mation related to economic opportunities; create an atmosphere favorable to 
long-term economic growth while recognizing the importance of the quality- 
of-life concept. The long-term economic growth, I think, was ])robab]y con- 
ceived as something like a decade to a generation. We can bes establish 
lasting organizations in our communities if we assure that the\- have con- 
tinuity and permanence when the administration changes, whether it l)e at 
the local or federal level or when politicians come and go. Emphasize the 
long-term, inherent advantages of the region while recognizing the problems 
and potential of short-term, rapid development. It is a particular concern 
to those communities in the region that arc in rapid growth, where the infra- 
structure -- by that, those services and facilities which support the local 
economic structure, such as our schools, water, transportation, and other 
public works -- those services are definitely an impact when you have a 
short-time, rapid development. The key words that came out of this question 

Til - 23 

were identify, stimulate, and coordinate; quality of life, and long-term, 
inherent advantages of our region. 

Our fourth question was how the public sector can complement the private 
sector in developing economic opportunities. The public sector should 
facilitate, act as a catalyst, to spread the risk and pick up an appropriate 
percentage of front-end expenses to enable economic development within the 
free enterprise system. The public sector would provide investment tax 
credits or other incentives and expand technical assistance to localities. 
There was one gentleman in our group who felt we need a balance between pri- 
vate investments and public investments. He estimated that about 80% of the 
investments in the country is public and the other 20% is private. There 
is a feeling that there should be more of a balance between private and 
public investments. In the expanding of technical assistance to localities, 
many of the local governing bodies, mayors, councilmen or commissioners, 
are caught up in their day-to-day routine, reacting to the wishes of the 
public. They have little opportunity to have any training in formal economic 
investment processes. It would be useful for the public sector to look at 
ways in which training could be made available to these local governing 

The public sector should not neglect the inherent values and economic heri- 
tage of a given locality, state or region. I think that the previous three 
reports enumerated that particular observation as well. The key words would 
be technical assistance, private enterprise, evaluate, cost and consequences 
of our actions (both positive and negative costs and consequences^, seed 
money, and reduction of over-controls. There was a definite consensus in 
this group discussion that many federal programs tend to be restrictive in 
many of our communities. They may not necessarily be as applicable to a 
community in this region as to Kansas City, New York or other communities 
throughout the United States. 

Warren, do you have anything you would like to add at this point? 


MR. ERICKSON: That is the report from group four. Warren and I appreciated 
the candor of the folks in our group and we enjoyed having the opportunity 
to serve as the moderators. 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: Thank you, Mayor. Now, could we have responses, 
comments, or amplifications? Would you be kind enough to give your name? 

MS. ANNE KUNZE: Anne Kunzc, Alpena, South Dakota. I would like to address 
my comments to the state delegates here, the state alernates (I guess you 
call them), to the Old West Regional Commission, and to the national con- 
ference on balanced growth. I recently participated in the South Dakota 
Futures Program which brought together citizens at eighty locations across 
the State to select issues of major importance for the future of South Dakota 
and to indicate what role the citizens who participated in the local programs 
wanted government to play in that future. The participants elected their own 

III - 24 

delegates to attend a state conference. At the state conference they deter- 
mined ten goals for the future of South Dakota and developed strategies for 
achieving these goals. Two of these goals seem especially important to the 
Old West Regional Commission because one relates to accomplishing a federal 
purpose; and the other addresses the role of government. One goal states 
that the scope and role of government are to maintain our own destiny as 
individuals, municipalities, townships, counties and as a state by allowing 
government to do those things which people cannot do for themselves and 
which should be decided upon and performed at the lowest possible level of 
government. The other goal is to encourage the raising of farm prices to 
help preserve the locally-owned, family farms and to encourage the ownership- 
operator of the family farm as an economic unit upon which a farm family 
can make a living, commensurate with the labor expended and a reasonable 
rate of return on investment. 

How can the policy developed through statt^wide participation programs have: 
any weight on the region's future if the Regional Commission has already es- 
tablished a plan through a bureaucratic process which has the weight of 
governors behind it? Will the regional plan be amended to take into account 
the policies established through citizen participation in a statewide pro- 
gram? The regional plan seems to be in conflict with the direction in which 
the peo])Ie of South Dakota want to go, which is to focus the economic future 
of the state strongly on the family farm ;ind ranch and to provide protection 
for farmland which will prevent its being used for other purposes, such as 
industry or mining, or something like that. The regional plan also seems to 
be in conflict with the South Dakota Futures' goal in that it's a blueprint 
for getting the federal government involved in every aspect of our lives 
from art centers to pipelines, while the people of South Dakota have indi- 
cated that they want less government involvement, especially federal govern- 
ment involvement; and that the state should retain its own self-determination 
rather than having someone from outside deciding what kind of goals and what 
kind of programs should be undertaken. 

1 would urge that the Old West Regional Commission reassess its economic 
plan in the light of the South Dakota Futures' goal to make sure it is not 
in conflict with the policies established by this legitimate statewide, 
citizen-participation process. Since the Futures Program was funded by the 
Old West Regional Commission, 1 would urge it to fund similar programs in 
each of the other states, to be completed within the next year, so that the 
citizens of each state will have the opportunity to establish policies for 
the future direction of their states. 

I would urge that 
elected from each 
the goals for the 
regional economic 
to replace the pi 
ference on balanc 
itself to funding 
level, then state 
national confcren 

a Regional Futures Conference 
of the State Futures Conferenc 
future of the region. l"rom th 
plan consistent with policies 
an presently existing. 1 would 
ed growth to advocate that the 
such citi zen -participation con 
and regional levels; and from 
ce on goals for the nation, uti 

be called, and the delegates 
es participate in determining 
is could be developed a 
established by the citizens 
also urge the national con- 
federal government commit 
ferences, first of the local 
that point, to convene a 
lizing as participants the 

111 - 25 

delegates who have participated in the goal-setting process. This I believe 
would provide a legitimate basis for any kind of planning process by govern- 
ment and criteria by which plans would be judged and would be the degree 
at which they were consistent with the goals established by the citizens. 
Then the government could help bring those goals into utilization. Thank 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: Any response to Theme Four? Any who attended that 
workshop or did not attend is welcome to comment. Thank you. We will 
move to Theme Five. This is workshop five which was chaired by Dave Oster- 
hout. Vice President for Financial Affairs at Doane College in Crete, 
Nebraska. Apparently Dan Sullivan is gone, but Tom Charlton assisted in 
that workshop. We will now have the report. 

MR. DAVID OSTERHOUT: Theme Five deals with assessing the inadequacies of 
government. Our first topic was designed to determine whether we wanted 
government to play a major role in our balanced growth program. To most of 
the people in our group, this was a waste of time because their answer 
was, "Of course. Who else?" There was a general consensus of this group 
that government leadership in the planning of balanced growth is both 
desirable and necessary. 

I might give you a few quotes from the cards because they bring in a little 
of the individual response that might be of interest. 

In a democracy, the formulation of policy is, indeed, a proper role of 

government . 

Yes, government should play a major role in shaping policy, but it should 

be by the elected representatives rather than the bureaucrats because 

developed policy must be responsive to society. 

Government must have a major role because it will facilitate input from 

the citizens. 

Government should provide for the people at the lowest possible level 

what the people cannot do for themselves. 

Our second topic asked at whiit level we thought government was most effec- 
tive. This was closely related to our first question; in fact, many answers 
for the second question probably should have been grouped with the first. 
This deals with the first question on page 16 of the guidebook on how we 
structure the government to deal with problems of balanced growth. The 
majority felt that problems ought to be dealt with at the closest level to 
the people and the area involved, consistent with the level of capability 
required to solve the problem; in other words, at the local level, if poss- 
ible, but move up to the state, region and federal, as needed. Where we had 
a flat preference as far as the level of government was concerned, the state 
WIS first choice and the local level was second. Some of the cards dealing 
with this topic said: 

State government can best provide for coordination of policies and pro- 
grams because of its central, regional focus. 
People are most affected in their daily lives by the local government 

III - 26 

so local government has the most opportunities to be effective. 

The level that is most effective is where all levels are participating. 

Federal, state and regional units must exert a greater influence on 

sharing with government and the power it now possesses. 

All levels work together to determine appropriate goals and policies 

as deteimined by the lowest community level; then measured against the 

state interest and then against the national interest. 

The most effective government is the one closest to the problem, with 

other levels participating as potential sources. 

All of them are effective, consistent with the scale and scope of the 

objective, and this protects the essential fabric of our national 


Then I have this interesting card which says, "The one that works best. 
Why aren't we using the study guide?" 

Our third question moved to the discussion guide and specifically posed 
the question as it relates to neighborhoods. This brought a mixed bag of 
responses. In general, it was concluded that the questions, as posed, apply 
only to a small part of the Old West Region. It didn't accept the neigh- 
borhood concept. They said, however, if neighborhood development is to have 
federal support, it should be defined to include rural areas as well as 
urban neighborhoods. Some said it could lead to parochialism, but if the 
program is administered and audited under planning policies of municipalities 
and states, there should be no problems. From the cards on this question: 

The federal government can't deal objectively with every local community. 
The state is the logical evaluator of community stability and progress. 
Cities and counties should deal with the state; then the state should 
deal with the federal government. 

I like this one, "No, yes, punt." 

The term "neighborhood" does not fit the Old West Region. "Community" 
is more appropriate. 

Federal assistance should flow directly to the lower level, then the 
state level, and permit coordination with state goals and objectives. 
They should not promote inefficiencies at the local level. 
Public policy should promote, through training and organizational assis- 
tance, voluntary community councils or groups to consider local needs 
and provide financial assistance to enable them to begin functioning on 
their own. 

Rural areas, natural trade and service areas should be considered 
neighborhoods . 

A viable economy will provide growth without sacrificing neighborhood 
vitality or encouraging exclusion or segregation. 

Running through our whole discussion was a thread of comment about the need 
for more accountability by the various levels of government and a desire 
that government efforts in balanced growth be more responsive to the needs 
of the people at the local level. 

Ill - 27 

We wound up our afternoon by asking the group to pose questions that they 
would like to have answered. We felt that they had spent all day involved 
in questions that were put before them. These were compiled on cards and 
turned in. Possibly they can be helpful in future meetings. Our final 
task was in our briefing session Monday afternoon. We discussed the possi- 
bility of trying to arrive at a definition of "balanced growth and develop- 
ment." That was mentioned last night. 1 think Mike mentioned it. This is 
a difficult task. We concluded, rather than get involved in that during 
the session, we would ask the people at the last session to report on this 
and possibly give their definitions. We simply asked them to write on a 
card, if they wanted to, their definition of balanced growth and economy. 
I think they're going to be interesting, but I am only going to use one 
because I don't want to take more time. This one reflects pretty much the 
opinion; and, perhaps, Mike and his assistants can use this in their list 
of regional opinions at the national level. This definition says, "That 
degree of economic activity that will insure a continuation of the advantages 
derived from living in the West and extend those advantages to those not now 
enjoying them." I thought that was probably a pretty true opinion of this 
group as to the way we feel about what the region affords in the way of a 
lifestyle and advantages of our region. 

That concludes our report. 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: Could we have some comment or questions regarding 
this workshop? 

MR. MIKE WELLS: My name is Mike Wells. I am Executive Director of the 
United Sioux Tribes of South Dakota. People have continued to talk about 
balanced growth throughout the duration of this conference. By the same 
token, on another scale, they have also commented and talked about many of 
the problems that exist on the reservation, for example, social problems and 
education, and about tribes becoming more self-sufficient and more self- 
serving. I was a little surprised yesterday when the resource chart, which was 
shown by the young lady, neglected to point out those resources which are 
presently available in South Dokota. The Tribes have recently discoverd that 
the Bureau has probably not totally released all of this information about the 
tremendous amounts of coal and uranium. Yet, the states continue to ignore 
any responsibility to that aspect of their people; in other words, the Indian 
people, are a part of that state, a part of the economy. It would serve the 
best interest of each of those individual states, as well as the region, to 
work a lot more closely with the Tribes in developing their resources for 
the benefit of those people individually as well as collectively for the state. 

I am sure, despite all the problems in the past, as far as jurisdiction is 
concerned, many of these things can be alleviated by simple cooperation. I 
think it's continually said that the Tribes are not willing to cooperate. 
I don't think that is entirely true, considering that we have eleven tribes 
in our corporation. I am, again, trying to stress that those people who are 
state leaders should work closely with the Tribes to develop them for them- 
selves and for the benefit of their communities. It would serve in the best 
interest of the Old West Region. Thank you. 

Ill - 28 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: Do we have further comments or questions? It might be 
that people have to make airplane schedules. We will move to Theme Six. 

It occured to me. there is a great deal of discussion about the quality of 
life and the quantity of life. I was the seventh of seven boys. I was very 
young during the depths of the depression in southcentral Nebraska. With all 
of our family, there was a great deal of quantity of life. There was a 
family down the street that had a son my age. His father was a doctor. It 
seemed to me that things were a little better at my friend Bob Smith's 
house. I stayed overnight at my friend's house, and when I got up the next 
morning, everything was very orderly. It wasn't like our house with all 
those people running around. We sat down at the breakfast table and I was 
served grapefruit with the sections cut. I had never seen that before, and 
I thought it was very nice and easy to ea;, . I wasn't squirting grapefruit 
in my (?ye. The next morning I got up at my house, and my mom was cutting 
up the grapefruit and just passing them out. I got a half of grapefruit ; 
and du}', into it. Then I said, "Mom, Mrs. Smith cuts the grapefruit into 
sections. Why don't you do that?" Well, the instant that the back of her 
hand hit my face, it dawned on me that perhaps quality of life and quantity 
of life are mutually exclusive. That perception has stayed with me all this 
time although the sting of the back of my mother's hand has long since gone. 
I have no idea what that has to do with anything. 

We have as the moderator of Theme Six Lt. Governor Schwinden of Montana, 

and assisting him is Lloyd Rixe. I participated in this theme, and I can 

tell you that lieutenant governors do bring a sense of class to these hearings. 

LT. GOVERNOR SCHWINDEN: Thank you. Governor. I still am somewhat perplexed 
by the story you just told. I don't know whether you are tiying to prove that 
you could have done a better job as MC than Moody did last night or whether 
the introduction to a discussion yesterday afternoon on growth in environmental 
quality is going to wind up with my face getting slapped before this session is 

The final theme dealt with what is, certainly, the thorniest issue, at least 
in the States of Montana, and I sense in most of the states of the region -- 
one of the ultimate concerns. That's growth against preservation of what 
we generously refer to as quality of life. I thought it might be interesting 
in the approximately ten minutes we had at the conclusion of the afternoon's 
program to pose a question predicated on the concept of balanced growth and 
economic dcvelopmi^nt . f guess it was curiosity more than anything else. We 
asked the seventy-odd participants to define growth. There were eight or nine 
respondents, but in fairness, and not meaning to hurt anyone's feelings, I 
think it was our conclusion that no one really offered a definition. Perhaps, 
many of the frustrations I have heard expressed in the hall to me and to 
others, deal with where we are going from the conference and relate to the 
fundamental issue of understanding what growth is as we all understand it as 
individuals in our state. 

Four basic discussion questions, and even those subtopics themselves, were 
questioned as to Iheir validity by the participants. 

in - 29 

First of all, can or should growth be inst i tut Lonal ly controlled? Wc 
agreed that "institutional" would be interpreted as government at one level 
or another. Second, we asked how the constraints to growth should be assessed. 
How do you evaluate them? The third subtopic dealt with, certainly, another 
issue of prime concern. How can you balance the national demands? One par- 
ticipant pointed out that "national demands" shouldn't be there. It should 
be ". . . genuine national needs against the desires and concerns of the Old 
West Region." Finally, in a modification of our proposed fourth subtopic, 
we came up with a question of what is appropriate growth and who or what 
determines appropriateness of growth. Certainly, one of the things that 
was clear, in sitting in front of the participants all afternoon, was a 
strong sense of regional identity; perhaps, not as identifying ourselves 
as Old Westerners, but of sharing a common concern for the common problems 
that we have in the five states. There was no way as we listened to the 
conversations at the tables or heard the reports to be able to identify 
what states those reports were coming from. It was a gencr^il recognition, 
I think, that was pretty well expressed throughout the afternoon, that this 
is a region of rural predomLnance, one of the few remaining in urban America. 

The basic questions that we addressed in terms of growth and its impact on 
the region really revolved around the resources that we have in the region, 
both renewable and non-renewable; and in terms of growth and development, 
how much and how fast. Although I can recall no explicit comment from any 
of the tables, T saw implicit in almost every response, the basic question of 
the market economy and the traditional allocation of resources versus sone 
mixture of control or involvement in that allocation process by government, 
whether it's at a single level or at all levels, from the federal down through 
the states and into the local communities. Certainly, it was clear from the 
conmients that appropriate growth is hard to define. We had a great number of 
conflicting opinions. Like the gentlemen, who preceded me, who came up with a 
definition of growth, I selected one because it was the only table report 
that got applause from the audience. One table defined appropriate growth as 
growth, consistent with the lifestyle and the values of the community, which 
encourages and nurtures human relationships within an environment that 
retains its integrity and its beauty. I think it is almost a paraphrase 
of «fhat was just reported from the previous group. 

The respondents, T think, also recognized universally the necessity to 
balance the costs of social, environmental and economic goals against the 
social and economic benefits to our region or to the nation as whole and, 
again, strongly emphasized expl icity or implicitly the feeling that people 
from local levels should be included in the discussion of growth policies 
and state policies. When they talk about local involvement, they talk about 
real and meaningful input into the decision-making process. It was generally 
felt that the region must be heard, nothwithstanding the fact that our region 
is sparsely populated as compared to the rest of the United States. A num- 
ber of respondents pointed out that when national and regional interests are 
in conflict, that national goals inevitably must take precedence; but when 
they do, there should be adequate compensation in terms of redressing the 
social and economic costs that are incurred by the region which suffers the 
adverse impacts. 

Ill - 30 

I sensed a general agreement that government does have a role in the control 
of growth. The consensus beyond that initial point broke down very rapidly 
into specific attempts to define the degree of government involvement, not 
only the degree to which government gets involved, but also the manner in 
which that involvement takes place in its attempts to (I guess the word is 
"interfere") -- to interfere in the traditional private sector mechanism. 

The participants generally agreed that there are identifiable constraints to 
any level of growth, including zero growth, and in summing that up, agreed 
that one only needs to look at all considerations that affect people. When 
you do that, you have to look not only in terms of the constraints that are 
quantifiable -- the acres of land and the feet of water -- but also at the 
subjective evaluations that are part of the quality of life. 

In summarizing what we think we heard yesterday afternoon in some two lours, 
there were three overriding themes. First was a recognition that the i egion 
is predominately rural and that the future of this region will clearly be 
tied to agriculture and that any concept of balanced growth for the region 
must assume that a healthy, renewable economy is going to prevail. I think 
implicit in that is, when we talk about balanced growth, we don't mean 
balanced in the region between a deteriorating agricultural economy whose 
once healthy involvement is supplanted by industrial development -- one at 
the expense of the other. Second, we felt there was a clear perception among 
the participants that growth must be appropriate and not just a random-type 
experience. Third -- and this came up either explicitly or implicitly — 
there was a general and very pervasive fear that regional concerns are 
inevitably going to be overridden totally or to a substantial degree, by 
national demands, whether those national demands are real or whether they 
are imaginary. I think it was interesting -- and this is simply a personal 
aside -- throughout the afternoon, there was an almost free exchange of the 
words "acceptable" and "appropriate" in terms of growth levels. I find that 
interesting because in discussing it last evening with Dr. Rixe, we sensed 
a substantial difference between those two words. Acceptable growth is 
anything in the entire spectrum down to the bottom line where you finally 
say that it was totally unacceptable. It seems to me it connotes a great 
deal more flexibility in a popular acceptance in the growth level. Approp- 
riateness has a connotation of what is right for the region, not necessarily 
what is bottom-line acceptable. I sensed, throughout the afternoon, that 
what the participants are primarily concerned about is growth at an appro- 
priate level rather than that which is simply acceptable to the people. I 
guess, the worst case would be a last resort. It's the only thing left to 

One of the interesting concerns posed, as we closed, was a comment — an|d 
I hope I can accurately paraphrase it -- a feeling of frustration, but not 
a protest -- by one of the participants who said that our obsession through- 
out this conference had been keyed toward growth in intergovernmental re- 
lationship constraints and that we had spent too little time in the conference 
talking about the values and defining the values that we are trying to protect. 
I suspect that is a pertinent comment that the conference sponsors should 

Ill - 31 

Like the other group leaders, I do want to thank, for Dr. Rixe and myself, 
the 70-odd people who made an exciting afternoon yesterday. Thank you. 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN : May we have some comment or response to Topic Six. 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I am Executive Director of United Tribes Education 
Technical Center here in Bismarck, which is primarily a vocational training 
center for American Indians -- native Americans. We serve not only the 
tribes in North Dakota, but a total of twenty-two different tribes through- 
out the United States, a total of ten different states. I guess part of the 
reason I want to make a statement with respect to issue six as well as the 
first issue on minorities, is to, in a sense, reiterate what Mr. Wells just 
stated a while ago about the need to communicate. 

I am reasonably impressed with this conference with respect to the approach 
used, to try to incorporate community-type representation and state-type 
representation throughout the five-state area. I think it is a wise 
approach. 1 think it ought to be done much more coherently and much more 
often when it comes to the Old West Regional Commission. I don't think 
that it has been done in the past coherently and openly. I would certainly 
say that, with respect to this conference, 1 hope this is in the future 
with respect to the commission and its approach to people because, in look- 
ing at this plan, I would certainly agree with the previous statement that 
there should be a great deal more community input, whether it's tribal or 
non-Indian or any other interests. I would certainly hope that is the 
approach, because if we don't take that kind of approach, essentially, 
what we are doing is asking many communities, many cities throughout this 
five-state region, to rubber-stamp a plan. I for one would not want to see 
that happen in the case of the Native American Indians. 

I would further recommend, when it comes to talking about conflicts, that 
the commission, among other groups in the various states, make a more direct 
effort in talking with the various tribal interests themselves, when it comes 
to this kind of plan, because we are all well aware, in every one of these 
states, that there are American Indians. In some of them, there are signi- 
ficant kinds of natural resources that are being developed. I think it 
is very, very important to talk with the various tribal leadership through- 
out these five states and to talk about what kind of impacts will 
result from this kind of plan. What I do not see in this plan is more re- 
presentatives, not just on the issue of future jobs, but on the issue of 
what is going to happen within these various tribal entities and within 
the various reservations that they occupy. I would say that it is very 
pertinent and very important for the commission to look at these kinds of 
things. We are all involved with the future of this five-state region. I 
wholeheartedly agree that it is very, very important and that it is time that 
this five-state area, the rural area, stand up and represent itself through- 
out the United States and make the statement that it, indeed, does have a 
great deal to do with the future of the United States, the future through- 
out the world, 

I think this five-state area has to stand up as a block when it comes to 
energy development and agricultural development, but in the process, we 

III - 32 

must be very careful that we consult among ourselves properly. I would 
hope that would be the step that the commission takes toward, not just The 
White House conference, but throughout the upcoming hearings. Thank you. 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: Any further comments on Topic Six? 

MR. HARVEY BRYAN: Mr. Chairman, my name is Harvey Bryan. I don't want to 
belabor Topic Six, but I guess I would like to emphasize, in any way, what 
the gentleman just before tried to say. I really appreciate the importance 
and difficulty of the questions of the conference. I really feel that the 
purpose of the conference has now been accomplished. I am aware, in the 
economic plan and in Topic Six, there is citizen participation. I would 
just say that we appreciate the fact that the Old West Regional Commission 
has recognized the importance of citizen participation. 

Maybe I will make just a few comments from the grassroot level where 1 think 
it's very important. I guess the first thing is, out in the boonies some 
of our friends come up and say that they feel like mushrooms. We are kept 
in the dark and fed horse manure. This is the way they feel. This is the 
kind of attitude we find at the grassroots level sometimes. 1 have also 
observed that people only support what they are a part of. If we can't 
include the people, then they don't have any investment in the program. 
I certianly know that the states must be a part of this and also feel that, 
somehow, we should explore the possibility of getting citizens more involved. 
I know you can't involve everybody, and somebody has to represent. I just 
want to emphasize that I think this is important. 

I feel that balanced growth shouldn't be just a discussion and that citizen 
participation should be more than just a discussion. They should have real 
meaning. The need calls for more refining processes. We appreciate your 
leadership in trying to refine this leadership participation. We seem to 
react normally to the crisis very late in the game. Sometimes I have a 
feeling it takes the legislature maybe even two years after that to react. 
So, with tongue in cheek and feeling like a mushroom, I noticed that Topic 
Six is citizen participation. 1 noticed in the economic plan that there is 
thirty million dollars budgeted for citizen participation. There are five 
states involved. When do we get the five million dollars for each state to 
develop citizen participation on balanced growth concepts in our state? 
Do you know what the process is there? 

Also, I would like to call attention to a group that's really concerned 
about this, and it wants to make a statement for the record. I know time 
is short, but I would like to introduce Mr. Ted Nace who would like to 
present this statement that a group worked on last night. We would appre- 
ciate that consideration. Thank you. 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: Is there any further comment on Topic Six? Yes, sir. 

MR. WAYNE PETERSON: I jun Wayne Peterson from South Dakota, a legislator. 
There is only one thing I would like to comment on in the Topic Six sum- 
mary. It says that any concept of balanced growth for the region assumes 

III - 33 

that a healthy, renewable agricultural economy will continue to prevail. 
I feel that gives a gross misrepresentation of the agricultural economy 
today. I would sincerely hope that prior to these reports going forward 
that the intimation that we do have a healthy agricultural economy could 
be changed in some way in that report. 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: I really don't think they meant that the foundation 
of any growth in the community must be this, that this is the bedrock of 
all economic development. 

MR. PETERSON: That's not the way it's written, 
intent, but that's not the way it came out. 

I am sure that was the 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: Again, we have difficulty in distilling the English 
language, but I did not read it tlie way you did. I think they are saying 
that it's obvious to all that we don't even need to discuss it, that the 
very foundation of our growth and well-being is the agriculture economy. 
It's a truism. 

MR. PETERSON: When you say it will continue, it means it has been so in 
the past. 

DR. JOHNSRUD: I am smiling only because Dr. Rixe and I meant exactly the 
opposite of what you are trying to imply. 

MR. PETERSON: I just want to clear it up. 

DR. JOHNSRUD: I am trying to suggest that any concept of the balanced 
growth for the region must assume a continued reliance on a healthy, re- 
newable agricultural economy. 

MR. PETERSON: Just some word changes there would help. 

DR. JOHNSRUD: I have no objections to that because that was the entire 
thrust of our discussion. 

MR. PETERSON: Than, you very much. 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: Further comments? 

MR. CHAUNCY KEPFORD: One short one. We all talk about citizen involve- 
ment. In my opinion, it boils down to hot air unless there is some 
mechanism for citizeis in the community to be affected by some massive 
growth project to sa/, "No, we will not have it." Otherwise, it's all talk 
and hot air. This must be represented. It must be there. There have to 
be two sides of the toin. The answer should not always be expected to be 
a yes from the citizens. The no-answer must be respected. Thank you. 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: All right. Any further comments then. Sir? 

MR. TED NACE: Governor Whelan, I am Ted Nace whom Harvey referred to. 

Ill - 34 

LT. GOVCIINOR VfllELAN: Does this relate to Theme Six? He said there was a 
group that had a report. 

MR. NACE: This report has to do with the process of this meeting, among 
other things, which relates to citizen participation in group circumstances. 
If you would explain my status, I would feel comfortable. 

LT. GOVERNOR WllELAN: The floor is open, and we do have time. Everybody 

has been cooperative. I don't want to shut out anybody who wants to present 

comments, particularly on Theme Six. 

MR. NACE: Would the floor be open to my comments after that? Is that 
your intent? 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: I have no intent at all. I was asked to preside over 
the reports of these six themes. If further discussion is desirable, that's 

^'1R. NACE: You will not be presiding after -- 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: No. I will be happy to sit here. I am not hung up 
about any of this. 

MR. NACE: Are you adjourning after the end of the discussion on Theme Six? 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: No. There isn't any ajoumment. There are no votes 
being taken. We arc not going to adjourn. I think Mr. McCarthy has some 
concluding remarks, but I would like to find out if there are any further 
remarks on Theme Six. 

MR. NACE: I would like to be recognized for exploration of other remarks. 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: A gentlemen came to me last night and said there was 
a minority report of some sort that he wanted to present. I do not know 
how they were selected, whether by citizen participation. Apparently, you 
speak for a group that met last evening. 

MR. NACE: Thank you very much for that. There was a caucus here in the 
assembly, and I am glad to be associated with Harvey and the other people 
of that caucus. There were no provisions in the conference for the forma- 
tion or recongnition of caucuses, but there was one which got together last 
night. We have comments on the process of this meeting and comments on 
the theme of agriculture. If it would be suitable, I would like to read 
those to the conference at this time. 

These arc comments on the process of the meeting. First, we feel that any 
group that is solely funded with public money should be accountable to 
the public in everything it does. This doesn't mean a total commitment 
of public involvement, but one that totally integrates the concept of public 
participation in organization policy, whether it is an ad campaign or 
survey or a conference or a study. Following through on this process cannot 

III - 35 

be done by just anyone, but by people who have competent skills in the pro- 
cess of citizen participation. We feel this particularly applies to the 
Old West Regional Commission. As citizens of this region, we feel that is 
is in the public interest to question and examine the Old West Regional 
Commission's expertise, commitment and priorities placed on public involve- 
ment. With regard to the regional economic plan, supported with public 
money, we are not confident whether effective public input occurred at the 
early stages of this project's formation or during the project's imple- 
mentation stages. We also do not know what happens to it from here. This 
conference has not reviewed or updated the economic plan. This concern is 
only natural because the implications of the plan may well be far-reaching. 

With regard to this particular conference, we realize that the planning 
time-frame was short, but we have several points about the process of the 
meeting. First, having more readable background material would be good, 
such as the annual report. The annual report was not in the advanced 
packet. It might have been. Now, we discover, for example, that in the 
annual report, there is a discussion of the London Times ' ads without any 
apology. Second, we feel that there should be a consistency between what 
the advanced materials say will be the process of the conference and what 
really happens. Third, we want to be uncompromising in placing highest 
priority on making sure all points of view are brought out in small and 
large group settings. This should be done as nonthreateningly and as 
encouragingly as possible. In some of the settings, there were instances of 
stiff ling divergent viewpoints, most to gain consensus. It is our convic- 
tion that people who are qualified, skilled and competent in these techniques 
of group dynamics and group leadership should act as the facilitators. There 
should be provided at a conference like this an opportunity to effect the 
agenda as to the future of this meeting and as to the future of other 
meetings. We would like to know if the minority viewpoints will be en- 
couraged and then sent to the national conference; whether a draft of the 
conference summary can be reviewed by participants before the final sum- 
mary of the conference is completed; and who is responsible for the final 
draft. We will offer these views and these comments as constructive in 
nature. We are fundamentally committed to the participation process, feeling 
that this is the great challenge of democracy. Now, to extend the process of 
citizen participation to which we are committed; and realizing that the full 
utilization of this is very critical if we are to create and control our own 
future within the Old West, those are our comments on the process of this 

I have a statement on agriculture which I would like to present, too, with 
your courtesy. We do not feel that the Old West Regional Commission in its 
conference on balanced growth or in its regional economic plan has adequately 
stated the concerns of agriculture with the expressed view of past and pre- 
sent administrations towards producing the food and thjS inadequacies. The 
economic and natural resource base of the region has been steadily declining. 
Many farmers are facing bankruptcy and foreclosure while trying to produce 
crops that they cannot sell for profit. In the process, they are mining and 
polluting the groundwater and streans. The Old West Regional Commission 
should concern itself more with the viability of the family as the basic 

JII - 36 

economic structure of the region and encourage from the federal government a 
sound agricultural program that would include the following six suggestons: 
One, parity for products produced; two, sound programs for soil and water 
conservation; three, the protection of the family farm from corporate or 
absentee ownerships; four, free access into markets coupled with strict 
controls over integrated corporations that control the marketing of these 
products; five, a change in the concept that the highest and best land and 
water resources are those which can get the highest immediate prices. It 
must be modified to reflect the long-terra goal of preserving agricultural 
productivity and natural resources; and, six, the realization that bigness 
is not better in agriculture. 

Finally, I have a comment on one other topic, health and development, one ' 
topic receiving essentially no consideration. The long-term health effects 
of energy production, both the coal and nuclear fuel cycles, draw the release 
of radioactive materials which can cause adverse health effects for genera- 

Thank you very much for this opportunity to present this report from this 
caucus of this conference body. 

LT. GOVF.RNOR WHEI.AN: George McCarthy has some final words. I want to 
express my appreciation to Warren IVhite for all the work he did on behalf 
of the Nebraska delegates. Ma'am? 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Mr. Chairman, may T make one comment, please? 


UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Perhaps, this comment should have come at an earlier 
point when we were talking about employment opportunities, but because it 
has not been addressed, I would like to make this brief comment. One of the 
greatest disparities economically in our nation and in the region is the 
difference in the (xonomic base between men and women. I would ask that The 
White House conference include this on the topics to be addressed; that is, 
economic balance between men and women in our nation. Thank you. 

LT. GOVERNOR WMELAN: Thank you for your good work. I am sure every state 
appreciates the staff work that was done by its lead person. I have some 
private reservations about the effectiveness of the Old West Region, but I 
also recognize its difficult job. The attempt, I guess, was to try to focus 
on growth and economic matters. There are so many relationships among agri- 
culture, energy, and ecological problems; the rights of women; the rights of 
minorities, and so forth, that it's almost impossible to isolate problems 
of growth ;ind, certainly, balanced growth. This conference was doomed to 
have some criticism because you cannot isolate a balanced growth. We even 
had some discussion about whether there should be growth. I am not at all 
certain thtit we can discuss that unless we start talking about po])ulation. 
This requires the feeding of people and the clothing and the housing of 
people. I don't think that eight people globally or nationally can decide 
that we are going to grow or not grow. What we have been doing here has 

III - 37 

been a pretty good effort to see if we can't nudge this a bit. We must 
exercise some of our own intelligence to try to preserve some of the things 
that we think are important, despite the dynamics of the globe or of the 
nation, which are so tremendous that they just roll on like the tides; and 
they will not change. Like the great depression, they just come upon us. 
The questions is, "VVhat are we going to do about it?" I just hope that the 
rest of the regions in the nation have people within them as dedicated, as 
learned and as devoted to their regions as we are in the Old West Region. 
I think we are in great shape as far as human resources are concerned 
because I have certainly seen a tremendous outpouring of genuine concern 
and intelligence. I am delighted that George asked me to be a part of it. 
Now, your final words. 

MR. GEORGE McCARTHY: Thank you. Of course, we knew when we sponsored this 
conference that there would be controversy. Controversy is the stimulus of 
democracy. Before I get into that, I would like to thank Governor Link and 
Woody Gagnon of his staff, the State of North Dakota, and the City of 
Bismarck for welcoming us here. I would especially like to thank the leaders 
who participated in each of the topics and all the participants who came to 
this conference. We are going to come out of this with some definitive pro- 
posals that will be submitted to The White House conference. It's going to 
be a difficult task. If there are additional comments from people who thought 
they were left out in submitting ideas or recommendations, we ask those people 
to put their remarks in writing and submit them to us. We will make them a 
part of the record. 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Sir, I have a question. In looking at the first page 
of the introduction to our study guide, it says that this conference is con- 
vened to respond to two requirements. One was to update the Regional Com- 
mission's economic development plan. Why didn't we have any time in the 
conference to address ourselves to updating the regional economic develop- 
ment plan? Why was that advertised as a purpose? 1 probably wouldn't have 
come if it had been advertised just to address issues for The White House 
conference. I was interested in our regional development plan. Why was 
this advertised and yet not done, if it was to meet a requirement to up- 
date our Regional Commission's economic development plan? I would not want 
it said that this conference was used for that purpose because there was not 
any citizen participation in accomplishing that. It has not occurred. 

MR. MCCARTHY: I might say to you that we develop the regional plan. We 
did say that, based upon this conference, we would examine that regional 
plan; and if it were found deficient, then wc would make the corrections 
in the plan, based upon the comments that developed here in this confer- 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: There really weren't very many ways that you can use 
the questions that wo did address to make amendments to that regional eco- 
nomic plan. We did not deal with anything specific enough. It was all 
very theoretical and abstract. 

MR. MCCARTHY: May I say this to you so that you understand the commission's 

III - 38 

structure. You may think the conunission is some kind of a monolithic or- 
ganization. It is not. It is merely a partnership between the federal 
government and the states. Five governors represent the state interests 
and one member represents the federal establishment in that partnership. 
These problems, discussions and recommendations are considered in a part- 
nership effort. 

As far as the regional plan is concerned, it was developed at the local 
level by the people of each state. If you were not involved in the devel- 
opment of the plan on the part of the State of South Dakota, you should 
go to the members in South Dakota. Make your recommendations to them so 
that they can submit your ideas to the governor's office for modification 
of the plan. 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Okay. That doesn't entirely satisfy my question. 
Will this conference then be used as a way of meeting some kind of federal 
requirement to have citizen participation in upgrading the plan? 

MR. McCarthy: The citizen participation in the plan comes through each 
state. You have to contact the alternate from your state, who, in this 
instance, happens to be Ted Muenster of the State of South Dakota. Ted 
will be glad to take your recommendations to the Regional Commission for 
inclusion or for correction of the regional plan. 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: All right. Then you say the goals adopted by the 
South Dakota Futures process might be considered citizen input into amend- 
ments to the plan? 

MR. MCCARTHY: That is right. If that is what was agreed upon -- if that 
was what was democratically arrived at -- and was the conclusion of the 
Futures Program in the State of South Dakota, yes. 

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I would urge that those goals be considered as part 
of the basis for citizen participation. 

MR. MCCARTHY: Is there any other question? 

Finally, again, I would like to thank everybody. I know this was a very 
difficult conference for people from our five-state area to come to and 
to reach some kind of understanding of the whole process. Might I say 
that we were probably just as confused as you were when we tried to put 
the thing together. We hope that somehow, somewhere, we will be able to 
make sense out of this and that we will be able to provide to The White 
House conference some kind of a positive consensus of what the Old West 
Regional Commission would desire on the part of the participants in the 
national conference. 

LT. GOVERNOR WHELAN: We will adjourn. Thank you. 

Ill - 39 



IV - 1 


ANDERSON, Newell B., Coordinator CANNON, Ross W. , Chairman 

Montana Old West Regional Commission Governor's Council of Economic Advisors 

1726 - 5th Avenue 2130 Highland Street 

Helena, Montana 59601 Helena, Montana 59661 

BECHTEL, Richard F. 

Assistant Federal State Coordinator 

State of Montana 

1600 Wilson Boulevard, Suite 720 

Arlington, Virginia 22209 

Browning Public Schools 
Brovming, Montana 59417 

BOSH, Vincent J., Business Manager 
I.U.O.E. Local 400 
2737 Airport Road 
Helena, Montana 59601 

BOURKE, Richard L. , Economist 
Department of Labor and Industry 
Box 169 Capital Station 
Helena, Montana 59601 

BROWN, Candy 
Montana State AFL-CIO 
P. 0. Box 1176 
Helena, Montana 59601 

BROWN, David R. , Deputy Director 
Montana Energy and MHD Research 
and Development Institute, Inc. 
P. 0. Box 3809 
Butte, Montana 59701 

BRYAN, Harvey W. 

Governor's Economic Advisory Board 

329 Johnson 

Wolf Point, Montana 59201 

BRYAN, Jr., William L. , Coordinator 
Northern Rockies Action Group, Inc. 
9 Placer Street 
Helena, Montana 59601 

BUCKS, Dan R. 

317 Beverly 

Missoula, Montana 59801 

CARLSON, Judith H, , Special Assistant 
Office of the Governor 
State Capitol 
Helena, Montana 59601 

Crisafulli Pump Company 
P. 0. Box 1051 
Glendive, Montana 59330 

ECK, Dorothy 

10 W. Garfield Street 

Bozeman, Montana 59715 

GILBERT, Robert N. , Secretary-Treasurer 
Montana Wool Growers Association 

P. 0. Box 1693 
Helena, Montana 59601 

GRAETZ, Rick, Publisher 
Montana Magazine 
P. 0. Box 5630 
Helena, Montana 59601 

HALL, Robert E., Administrstrative Assistant 
Lt. Governor's Office 
Capitol Station 
Helena, Montana 59601 

HALLIGAN, Michael L. 

5 Valleys District Council 

Missoula County Courthouse Annex i(f307 

Missoula, Montana 59801 


Montana State Economic Advisory Council 

P. 0. Box 316 

Roundup, Montana 59072 

KIELY, Thomas F. 

Office of Commerce and Small Business 

State Capitol, Room #108 
Helena, Montana 59601 

IV- 2 

MONTANA - continued 

LARSON, H. A. ZACEK, Joyce D. 

Regional Representative Governor's Council of Economic Advisors 

Western Forest Industries Association 515 Morrow Street 

P. 0. Box 1136 Bozeman, Montana 59715 

Kalispell, Montana 59901 

PLUNKETT, Jerry D. , Managing Director 
Montana Energy and MHD Research and 

Development Institute, Inc. 
225 South Idaho Street 
P. 0. Box 3809 
Butte, Montana 59701 

POST, Ernest 
Montana State AFL-CIO 
P. 0. Box 1176 
Helena, Montana 59601 

RABENBERG, John, Executive Secretary 
Wolf Point Chairfjer of Commerce 
Box 237 
Wolf Point, Montana 59201 

REBER, Duane L. , President 
Montana Mining Association 
2924 Salish Court 
P. 0. Box 3296 
Missoula, Montana 59806 

RIXE, Lloyd C, Economic Consultant 
TAP, Inc. 
Route 2, Box B 
Bozeman, Montana 59715 

SCHOKNECHT, Mark, Representative 
Montana Wood Products Association 
Box 646 
Libby, Montana 59923 

SCHWINDEN, Lt. Governor Ted 
Capitol Station 
Helena, Montana 59601 

Dutton, Montana 59433 

STONE, Eric L. , Regional Planner 
Bureau of Land Management 
P. 0. Box 30157 
Billings, Montana 59107 



ABBOT, Betty 
Executive Building 
Suite 503 

1624 Douglas Street 
Omaha, Nebraska 68102 

BUDD, Rick 

Small Business Administration 

Empire State Building 

19th and Fa mam 

Omaha, Nebraska 68102 

Department of Education 
P. 0. Box 94987 
Lincoln, Nebraska 68509 

Northwestern Bell - Omaha 
Dodge Building, Room 1240 
100 S. 19th Street 
Omaha, Nebraska 68102 

ENERSEN, Lawrence A. 
The Clark Enersen Partners 
1515 Sharp Building 
Lincoln, Nebraska 68508 


Union Pacific 

Suite 1200 

One First National Center 

Omaha, Nebraska 68102 

GEORGE, James E., Manager 


P. 0. Box 987 

Colunibus, Nebraska 68601 

GERDES, William D. , Research Associate 
Nebraska Bureau of Business Research 
200 College of Business Administration 
Lincoln, Nebraska 68588 


3535 Harney Street 

Omaha, Nebraska 68131 

JORGENSEN, Jeffrey L, 

Department of Community Affairs 

Department of Economic Development 

State Capitol 

Lincoln, Nebraska 68509 

KOEHLER, Frank U. , City Manager 

City Hall 

1818 Avenue A 

Scottsbluff, Nebraska 69509 

KRANDA, William R. 
Governor's Special Grant Program 
CETA, 124 North 11th Street 
Lincoln, Nebraska 68508 

LEHR, Donald J., Division Manager 
Far-Mar-Co Inc 
609 Grain Exchange 
1905 Harney Street 
Omaha, Nebraska 68102 


Nebraska Stock Growers Association 

Box 196 

Wauneta, Nebraska 69045 

MASSENGALE, Martin, Vice Chancellor 
University of Nebraska -Lincoln 
310 Administration Building 
Lincoln, Nebraska 68588 

MAXEY, Senator Jo Ann 
2800 "S" Street 
Lincoln, Nebraska 68503 

MERTENS, Ronald J. 

Nebraska Department of Economic Development 

P. 0. Box 94666 

Lincoln, Nebraska 68509 

MILLS, Senator Jack 
Nebraska State Legislature 
Statehouse, Room 1017 
Lincoln, Nebraska 68509 


NEBRASKA -- continued 

OSTERHOUT, David WHITE, Warren G. 

Vice President for Financial Affairs Natural Resources Coordinator 

Doane College State Office of Planning and Programming 

P. 0. Box 219 State Capitol, Box 94601 

Crete, Nebraska 68333 Lincoln, Nebraska 68509 

POTTS, Gerald, Director WOLFE, Ramona A. 

Economic Development and Planning Secretary of Tribal Council 

Central Nebraska Community Winnebago Tribes 

Services, Inc. Winnebago, Nebraska 68071 
Box 509 
Loup City, Nebraska 68853 

SHAW, Ralph W. , General Manager 
Omaha Public Power District 
1623 Harney Street 
Omaha, Nebraska 68102 

SHIVELY, Robert, Director 
Nebraska Public Power District 
P. 0. Box 499 
Columbus, Nebraska 6860] 

SPITZENBERGER, William A., Director 
Northern Natural Gas Company 
2223 Dodge Street 
Omaha, Nebraska 68102 

WARRICK, Robert, Chairmen 
Nebraska Chapter of the Sierra Club 
Rural Route #1, Box 11 
Meadow Grove, Nebraska f8752 

WHALEY, William, Directcr 
Economic Planning and Development 
Central Nebraska Community Services, Inc. 
Loup City, Nebraska 68853 

WHELAN, Lt. Governor Geiald T. 
P. 0. Box 94863 
State Capitol, Room 2315 
Lincoln, Nebraska 68509 

WHITE, Jr., Felix, Executive Director 

Nebraska Indian Commission 

Box 94914 

Lincoln, Nebraska 68506 




The Nokota Company 

P. 0. Box 1633 

Bismarck, North Dakota 58501 

AUBOL, Clare H. 
North Dakota Motor Vehicle 
900 East Boulevard 
Bismarck, North Dakota 58505 

BANKS, Bonnie Austin 
Associate Planner 
State Planning Division 
State Capitol ~ 9th Floor 
Bismarck, North Dakota 58505 

BARTCH, Bruce L. , Director 

North Dakota Business and Industrial 

Development Department 
523 East Bismarck Avenue 
Bismarck, North Dakota 58505 

BATES, Irvine W. 

Comminity Affairs Representative 

Montana-Dakota Utilities Company 

400 N. 4th Street 

Bismarck, North Dakota 58501 

BERG, Merril, President 
Lake Region Junior College 
Devils Lake, North Dakota 58301 

BERVIG, Allen R. 
Department of Economics 
University of North Dakota 
Williston, North Dakota 58801 

BOYUM, Arne, Executive Director 

North Dakota League of Cities 

217 N. 3rd St. 

P. 0. Box 2235 

Bismarck, North Dakota 58501 

Division of Economic Opportunity 
State Capitol — 18th Floor 
Bismarck, North Dakota 58505 

CARLSEN, Dr. Anne, Administrator 
Crippled Children's Hospital School 
Jamestown, North Dakota 58401 

CLEMENT, John H. , Administrator 

Community Relations 

ANG Coal Gasification Company 

P. 0. Box 1977 

Bismarck, North Dakota 58501 

CONRAD, Dean L. , Director 
Accounts and Purchases 
State of North Dakota 
State Capitol 
Bismarck, North Dakota 58505 

CONRAD, Juanita R. 

Energy ERA 

220 West Divide Avenue 

Bismarck, North Dakota 58501 

DANDO, William A., Chairman 
Department of Geography 
University of North Dakota 
Grand Forks, North Dakota 58202 

DeBILZAN, Lawrence, Director 

Administrative Services 

Social Service Board of North Dakota 

Capitol Building 

Bismarck, North Dakota 58501 

DOCKTER, Wallace J., Field Representative 
North Dakota AFL-CIO 
Bismarck, North Dakota 58501 

DUDE, Dormilu A., Administrative Assistant 

Office of The Attorney General 

State Capitol 

Bismarck, North Dakota 58505 

ECKRE, Alvin C. 

North Dakota State School of Science 

Wahpeton, North Dakota 58075 

ESPELAND, Richard A. 
State Personnel Director 
State Capitol 
Bismarck, North Dakota 58505 

FUGLESTEN, Harlan, Management Director 
North Dakota State Highway Department 
Bismarck, North Dakota 58501 

GAGNON, George 

Director of Administration 

Office of the Governor 

State Capitol 

Bismarck, North Dakota 58505 

I\f - 6 



GERL, James, President 
North Dakota AFL-CIO 
1911 North 11th Street 
Bismarck, North Dakota 58501 

GIPP, David M. , Executive Director 
United Tribes Education Technical 

3305 South Airport Road 
Bismarck, North Dakota 58501 

GOODRICH, William P. 

Economic Development Specialist 

North Central Planning Council 

P. 0. Box 651 

Devils Lake, North Dakota 58301 

GRAHL, James L. , General Manager 
Basin Electric Power Cooperative 
1717 Interstate Avenue 
Bismarck, North Dakota 58501 

HAGEN, Bruce, Commissioner 
Public Service Commission 
State Capitol 
Bismarck, North Dakota 58505 

HARZINSKI, Terry, Assistant Director 

North Dakota Travel Division 

State Highway Building 

Capitol Grounds 

Bismarck, North Dakota 58505 

HAUSAUER, Representative LeRoy 

85 Dakota Avenue 

Wahpeton, North Dakota 58075 

HEISNER, Larry, Executive Director 
South Central Regional Council 
P. 0. Box 903 
Jamestown, North Dakota 58401 

HELPHREY, Juanita J. 

Executive Director 

North Dakota Indian Affairs 

State Capitol - 18th Floor 
Bismarck, North Dakota 58501 

HENRY, Mark S., Associate Professor of 

University of North Dakota 
Grand Forks, North Dakota 58202 

JACQBY, Trudy, President 

North Dakota League of Women Voters 

1301 Walnut Street 

Grand Forks, North Dakota 58201 

JOHNSON, Gary E., State Assistant Manager 
Regional Environmental Impact Statement 
1533 North 12th Street, Suite 2 
Bismarck, North Dakota 58505 

JOHNSRUD, Dr. Myron, Director 
Cooperative Extension Service 
North Dakota State University 
109 Morrill Hall 
Fargo, North Dakota 58102 

KALDAHL, Therman, Executive Director 

Employment Security Bureau 

1000 East Divide 

Bismarck, North Dakota 58505 


Mercer County Coal Impact Information Office 

30 West Main Street 

Beulah, North Dakota 58523 

KEMMER, Douglas F., Division Superintendent 
SOO Line Railroad Company 
Enderlln, North Dakota 58027 

LANDBLOM, Rod, Executive Director 
Roosevelt-Custer Regional Council 
Pulver Hall 
Dickinson, North Dakota 58601 


Lewis & Clark 1805 Regional Council for 

Mandan, North Dakota 58501 


United Tribes Educational Technical Center 

3315 South Airport Road 

Bismarck, North Dakota 58501 


NORTH DAKOTA - continued 

LOTOtf, Glenda, Staff Assistant 
Natural Gas Pipeline Co. of America 
P. 0. Box 1073 
Bismarck, North Dakota 58501 

LINK, Honorable Arthur A. 
Governor of North Dakota 
Bismarck, North Dakota 58505 

LUND, Oscar M. , Jr., Coordinator 

Economic Development Planning 

State Planning Division 

State Capitol 

Bismarck, North Dakota 58501 

MACK, Herbert J. ABM Coordinator 
State Planning Division 
State Capitol — 9th Floor 
Bismarck, North Dakota 58505 

Land Use Coordinator 
State Planning Division 
State Capitol — 9th Floor 
Bismarck, North Dakota 58505 

MORGAN, Betty, Executive Secretary 
North Dakota Wildlife Federation 
Rural Route 1 
Bismarck, North Dakota 58501 

MULLINS, Richard, Executive Director 

North Central Planning Council 

P. 0. Box 651 

Devils Lake, North Dakota 58301 

NACE, Theodore K. 

North Dakota State & Local Affeirs 

P. 0. Box 507 
Dickinson, North Dakota 58601 

NELSON, Rob, Deputy Registrar 
North Dakota Motor Vehicle 
State Office Building 
Bismarck, North Dakota 58505 

OMDAHL, Lloyd 

University of North Dakota 

Grand Porks, North Dakota 58202 

O'SHEA, Representative Robert 
Turtle Lake, North Dakota 58575 

PALMER, Richard, Assistant Executive Director 

North Dakota Education Association 

Box J 

Bismarck, North Dakota 58501 

PIETRON, Senator Arnold 
Larlmore, North Dakota 58251 

PITTS, Paul 

615 North 39th Street, Apartment 105 D 

Grand Forks, North Dakota 58201 

National Biocentric Inc. 
Kirkwood Tower — #206 
Bismarck, North Dakota 

ROWE, Clair 

Dean of College of Business 
University of North Dakota 
Grand Forks, North Dakota 58201 

RUSTAD, Irvln D. 

Lake Agasslz Regional Council 

319% Fifth Street, North 

P. 0. Box 428 

Fargo, North Dakota 58102 


924 Sunset Drive 

Grand Forks, North Dakota 58201 

SATROM, Joseph A. 

Mid America Contractors, Inc. 

Box 951 

Bismarck, North Dakota 58501 

SATR(»I, Katherine M. 

Research and Information Assistant 

Office of The Governor 

State Capitol 

Bismarck, North Dakota 58505 

SEBELIUS, Steve, Project Coordinator 
Community Action, Region VI 
701 Third St., S. E. 
Jamestown, North Dakota 58401 

IV - 8 

NORTH DAKOTA — continued 


North Dakota State Laboratories 

2635 East Main Street 
P. 0. Box 937 
Bismarck, North Dakota 58505 


Department of Public Instruction 

Bismarck, North Dakota 58501 

SOLBERG, Thomas M. , President 
North Dakota Association of Rural 

Electric Cooperatives 
Box 727 
Mandan, North Dakota 58554 

STAIGER, Russell 

Planning Administrator 

North Dakota State Planning Division 

State Capitol — 9th Floor 

Bismarck, North Dakota 58505 

STEELE, Chuck, District Manager 
Bureau of Land Management 
1432 First Avenue, East 
Dickinson, North Dakota 58601 

STEWART, Earl E., Chairman 
Graduate Program 
Community and Regional Planning 
North Dakota State University 
Fargo, North Dakota 58102 

STOERKER, Reverend Mr. Win 
Executive Director 
North Dakota Council of Churches 
107% North Fourth Street 
Bismarck, North Dakota 58501 

THOMAS, James D. 

United Tribes Education Technical 

Training Center 
3315 South Airport Road 
Bismarck, North Dakota 58102 


Bank of North Dakota 

P. 0. Box 1657 

Bismarck, North Dakota 58501 

VALEU, Robert 

Basin Electric Power Cooperative 

Bismarck, North Dakota 58501 

VAN HEUVELEN, W. , Executive Officer 
North Dakota State Department of 
State Capitol 
Bismarck, North Dakota 58505 

WALLIN, Claudia, Staff Assistant 

AMG Coal Gasification Co. 

304 East Rosser Avenue 

P. 0. Box 1977 

Bismarck, North Dakota 58501 

WALTON, Will, Consultant 
Loran Galpin Associates 
909 Basin Avenue 
Bismarck, North Dakota 58501 


State and Local Affairs Council 

13 East Broadway 

Williston, North Dakota 58801 

WHEELER, Arthur W. , President 
North Dakota League of Cities 
Maddock, North Dakota 58348 

WHITNEY, Robert J. 

410 15th Street 

Devils Lake, North Dakota 58301 



BAUMAN, Garfield 
Representative, I.B.E.W. 
South Dakota State Federation 
6409 West 10th Street 
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57107 

BRAKKE, Allen L. , General Manager 

Diamond Advertising Agency 

605 North Rowley 

Mitchell, South Dakota 57301 

CALLAN, Thomas R. 
South Dakota County Conmlssion 
Rural Route 2, Box 46 
Woonsocket, South Dakota 57385 

GHQATE, William S. 
Executive Director 
South Eastern Council of 
P. 0. Box 1859 
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57101 


126 Third St., S. W. 

Huron, South Dakota 57350 

CLARK, Patricia 

8 Vale Road 

Spearflsh, South Dakota 57783 

EDIE, Esther 

South Dakota Environmental Coalition 

Rural Route 2 

Bruce, South Dakota 57220 

GLENNON, William 
Chief Economic Planner 
State Planning Bureau 
State Capitol — Room 375 
Pierre, South Dakota 57501 

GUFFEY, James V. 

202 N. Lake Drive 

Watertown, South Dakota 57201 

HARTOG, Albert 

Division of Resource Management 

Department of Natural Resources 

Joe Foss Building 
Pierre, South Dakota 57501 

KECKER, Wilmont A. 

South Dakota Wheat Commission 

Raymond, South Dakota 57258 

KUNZE, Anne 

Rural Route 1 

Alpena, South Dakota 57312 

LEIN, Dr. Charles D, , President 
University of South Dakota 
Vermillion, South Dakota 57069 

MILLER, Linda Lea 

4100 West Mesa Pass 

Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57106 


408 E. Main Street 

Vermillion, South Dakota 57609 

ORAVA, Dr. R. Norman 
South Dakota School of 
Mines and Technology 
Rapid City, South Dakota 57701 

PETERSON, Representative Wayne 
Holablrd, South Dakota 57540 

REESE, John H. , Secretary 
Economic and Tourism Development 
Joe Foss Building — Room 216 
Pierre, South Dakota 57501 

SCHROEDER, William, Associate Secretary 
South Dakota Department of Agriculture 
Anderson Building 
Pierre, South Dakota 57501 

IV - 10 

SOUTH DAKOTA — continued 


Executive Vice President 

Sioux Falls Development 

101 West 9th Street 

Sioux Falls, South Dakota 57102 

THAYER, Harvey 

Game, Fish and Parks Coramission 

Britton, South Dakota 57430 

THOMPSON, Dr. John E., Head 
Economics Department 
South Dakota State University 
Brookings, South Dakota 57007 

TUSHAUS, Herman, Director 

Planning and Development District III 

Yankton County Courthouse 

P, 0. Box 687 

Yankton, South Dakota 57078 

VAN LOAN, James, Director 
Office of Energy Policy 
Anderson Building 
Pierre, South Dakota 57501 

WELLS, Michael D. , Executive Director 
United Sioux Tribes of South Dakota 
P. 0. Box 1193 
Pierre, South Dakota 57501 

ZIMIGA, Arthur W. , Coordinator 
Office of Indian Affairs 
State Capitol 
Pierre, South Dakota 57501 

IV - 11 


CHARLTON, Jr., Thomas J., Leader 

Natural Resource Section 

State Planning Coordinator's Office 

2320 Capitol Avenue 

Cheyenne, Wyoming 82002 


Community Action of Laramie County 

Cheyenne, Wyoming 82001 

ELLIS, Carol B., Staff Sociologist 
Wyoming Industrial Siting Administration 
Boyd Building, Suite #500 
Cheyenne, Wyoming 82002 

ENZI, Elmer J., President 
NZ Shores of Sheridan, Inc. 
176 Main Street 
Sheridan, Wyoming 82801 

NILAND, John, Executive Director 
Department of Economic Planning 6e Development 
Barrett Building - 3rd Floor 
Cheyenne, Wyoming 82002 

PETERSEN, Leslie, President 
Wyoming Outdoor Council 
Box 2497 
Jackson, Wyoming 83001 

PICARD, Vince, Executive Director 
Wyoming Association of County 

Laramie, Wyoming 82070 


Big Horn Coal Company 

Sheridan, Wyoming 82801 

ENZIE, Michael, Mayor 
Gillette, Wyoming 82716 


City Manager of Casper 

Casper, Wyoming 82601 

HOCKER, Jean Wltmeyer 

Box 2443 

Jackson, Wyoming 83001 

KEPFORD, Chauncey 
P. 0. Box 1093 
Jackson, Wyoming 83001 

KIMBLE, Robert L. 
University of Wyoming 
Institute for Policy Research 
Laramie, Wyoming 82071 

KINGHAM, Walter, Director 

Wyoming Association of Municipalities 

Cheyenne, Wyoming 82001 

MADRID, Will, Director 
Wyoming-Colorado Economic Development 

Cheyenne, Wyoming 82001 

NELSON, Bryant 

Wy-Con Chemical Company 

Cheyenne, Wyoming 82001 

REESE, Michael, Chief of State Planning 
Department of Economic Planning & Development 
Barrett Building - 3rd Floor 
Cheyenne, Wyoming 82002 

ROSO, Anthony, Chief 

Industrial Development 

Department of Economic Planning & Development 

Barrett Building 

Cheyenne, Wyoming 80002 

STOLNS, Joe, Executive Director 


Worland, Wyoming 82401 

SULLIVAN, Dan, Director 
Community Development Authority 
Casper, Wyoming 82601 

THOMPSON, James A., Sociologist 
University of Wyoming 
Laramie, Wyoming 82071 

WAGGENER, Dick, Mayor 
Green River, Wyoming 82935 


Amoco Production Company 

Riverton, Wyoming 82501 

IV - 12 


BROOKS, Nancy A., Special Assistant KANTER, Eric 

Four Corners Regional Commission Director of Public Affairs 

U. S. Department of Commerce - #1898C White House Conference 

14th and E. Streets, N, W. 2001 "S" Street, N. W. - #200 

Washington, D. C. 20230 Washington, D. C. 20009 

DAVIS, Ned, Special Projects Manager 
Rocky Mountain Energy Company 
4704 Harlan Street 
Denver, Colorado 80212 

FORT, Joanne Doddy, Staff Director 
Coomunity and Economic Development 
National Governors Conference 
444 North Capitol Street 
Washington, D. C. 20001 

GRASER, Carol 

Old West Regional Commission 
1730 "K" Street, N. W. - #426 
Washington, D. C. 20006 

GREER, Richard T. 
Economic Development Subconmiittce 
United States Senate 
Washington, D. C. 20510 

HANSON, Jerry 
Hanson and Associates 
Hedden Empire Building 
Billings, Montana 59101 

HANSON, James R. 
Hanson and Associates 
7824 Pearson Way 
Fridley, Minnesota 55432 


Rural Development Service 

U. S, Department of Agriculture 

Washington, D. C. 20250 

INGOLD, Gene, Director of Programs 
Old West Regional Commission 
1730 "K" Street, N. W. - #426 
Washington, D. C. 20006 

KENNEDY, III, Ralph G. , Vice President 
Consad Research Corporation 
121 N. Highland Avenue 
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15206 


White House Conference 

2001 "S" Street, N. W. - #200 

Washington, D. C. 20009 

LARSON, Carl A., Deputy Administrator 
Rural Development Service 
U. S. Department of Agriculture 
Washington, D. C. 20250 

McCarthy, George, Federal Cochairman 
Old West Regional Commission 
1730 "K" Street, N. W. - #426 
Washington, D. C. 20006 

McNICHOLS, Stephen, Regional Representative 
Office of The Secretary of Commerce 
909 - 17th Street - #515 
Denver, Colorado 80202 

MEISNER, Don, Director 


P. 0. Box 447 

Sioux City, Iowa 51102 

MINIER, Alan B. 
State Planning Department 
2320 Capital Avenue 
Cheyenne, Wyoming 82002 

PARKER, Benny L. , Fiscal Officer 
Old West Regional Commission 
1730 "K" Street, N. W. - #426 
Washington, D. C. 20006 

IV - 13 


RAPP, Donald A. , Senior Regional Planner 
A.B.T. Associates, Inc. 
7503 Marin Drive - #3C 
Denver, Colorado 80110 

RAUNER, Dr. Robert M. 

Office of Regional Economic Coordination 

U. S. Department of Commerce 

14th and E. Streets, N. W. 

Washington, D. C. 20230 


Bio-Search and Development Company 

12700 Prospect Avenue 

Kansas City, Missouri 64146 

Upper Midwest Council 
Federal Reserve Bank Building 
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55480 

STUDER, Jeannette, Economist 
Westmoreland Resources 
2705 Montana Avenue 
Billings, Montana 59107 

TYLER, Clark 

White House Conference 

2001 "S' Street, N. W. - #200 

Washington, D. C. 20009 

WHISMAN, John, Consultant 

Office of Regional Economic Development 

U. S. Department of Commerce 

14th and E. Streets, N. W. - #2096 

Washington, D. C. 20230 

IV - 14